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What D&D cliches are you sick of?

Henry said:
Historically, there have been plenty of mercenaries; but rarely did they always fight only for the next paycheck. Most had a goal in mind - fight as long as they could, then find a place to settle down with their savings, etc. It didn't always happen that way, but rarely do human beings intentionally say, "I live for the next fight, and more treasure," because the ones that do, don't stay alive for a year or three at most (vis-a-vis the bulk of pirates of the 17th century.)

And the volunteer army is again not quite the definition I've trying to get at, because you have people entering for anything from patriotism to paid college. I've only known one person who made a career out of the National Guard, and he didn't stay in it but about 1 or two terms before calling it quits.

I'm talking mainly about those D&D Orphans, wandering the realms in search of treasure with no ultimate goal but the next slain monster. Those are the personality-bereft weirdo PC's I refer to. :)

True, a lifetime spent rooting about dungeons in search of treasure and killing monsters is rare through history... but, adventurers are supposed to be a rare breed. And, in history, there have been quests that have had many adventurers drawn to them, or events that thrust adventure on to some, even if it was for a period of time (i.e., the king leading a crusade to re-take the 'Holy Land' and the men that joined the crusade - as well as the men that defended their lands from the crusaders. A crusade may have kept some away from home for years..., or in fiction, the Quest for the Holy Grail... )

Most of the time I have gamed has been in epic style campaigns where the PCs have the goal of saving the world. I had assumed that was the norm? Would a PC being in a campaign to save the world be justified in taking a few years of game time adventuring? What about somebody like Maximus in "Gladiator" being a general, but having the goal of returning to his farm?
 

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My cliche list as a player, GM, editor, and designer:

    • All-time #1 CLICHE: Bandit encounters. I want to PUKE everytime I see some lame-o "bandit" encounter.

    • Obsidian flipping anything (walls, pillars, monoliths, thrones.. ETCETERA)

    • Detect evil

    • Getting the party to eat human flesh yet again

    • The guy who hires you then later tries to kill you

I used to have some other cliche's that I had burned out on but have had to just deal with:
* Dungeon crawls without innovative plots with interesting NPCs/monsters/whatever OUTSIDE of the dungeon (oh, lemme guess, the dungeon is to blame! Why are we standing around? Let's go nuke the cave.) Cave in the front door and move along. You know what item should be in the pHB? Dynamite. But what would we do then?
* Magic for every class as a crutch instead of innovative game design of multiple non-magical classes/careers/backgrounds and a system that encourages something other than a spell/magic to solve any problem or as an excuse to for leveling goodies.
* Cliche systems: Spells are commonplace and are pretty much a complete replacement for skills
* Cliche bad scenario design: Scenarios without a "Synopsis of Expected Play"
* Cliche wasted game design: Space wasted in books for high level and epic play (and spells)..especially in fantasy heartbreakers (or D&D for that matter).


Cliche's that I love?
* Gnomes, halflings, elves, dwarves
* big caverns
* rolling lots of dice all the time
* watching storytellers battle it out with boardgamers over what percentage should go into an RPG
* house rules!




jh
 


* Dungeon crawls without innovative plots with interesting NPCs/monsters/whatever OUTSIDE of the dungeon (oh, lemme guess, the dungeon is to blame! Why are we standing around? Let's go nuke the cave.) Cave in the front door and move along. You know what item should be in the pHB? Dynamite. But what would we do then?

You would like my warlocks, I made a invocation that turned an eldritch blast into a bomb...
 

hmmm...i'm gming a bunch of 5e campaigns in a homebrew world. and i hate dnd for a number of reasons--5e is getting there to bring me around but--
1-clerics. clerics bug me---healing with a touch is an amazing power--a cleric would be a founder of a cult in and of himself...but in this world...they can all do this. odd. really imbalancing...and raising the dead?
2. falling damage--come on---5 editions and it still has people falling from orbit and running into battle?
3. the environment not being a problem. a whole chunk of fiction is man against the elements...not here
a bunch of other stuff--but it isnt a cliche so much as it is power gaming and build over story...
 

Lack of environment rules is a serious problem. Try simulating the effects of fighting in snow or on ice, I dare you. Just developing a prestige class around snow and ice has me pulling my hair out.
 

Getting the party to eat human flesh yet again
A 10+ year necro, but THIS made me laugh!

Gotta say, though, haven't seen this one in person.

Your choices of words makes that even more funny. I have to say I have not seen that in groups I have played in either. Although, I suspect if the concept were introduced, it would be akin to that South Park episode where the town gets snowed in and they start eating each other within hours.
 

1. Everyone speaks the same language: I understand this for game reasons. However, it seems very silly to me that EVERYONE in the whole world speak common by default. I can understand a trade language, but the idea of a universal speech that even peasants in isolated communities speak is just absurd.

Well, first, there is no reason to assume that even peasants in isolated communities speak the same language. However, I used to think like you do and tried to create a more realistic world. The problem is that a more realistic world sucks. RP with NPCs is one of the most fun aspects of the game. If you cut that off so that the PCs can't meaningfully interact with an NPC, it's not a win, no matter how much more realistic it might be. So as a practical matter, what you want is for every NPC that can RP or is likely to have non-violent interaction with the PCs, for it to actually be able to speak with the PC. This won't mean that they all speak common, but does mean that its in your interest as a DM to ensure the number of languages is small and that some sort of common tongue is shared with someone in the party.

2. The prevalence of "raise dead spells": Any mid-to-high level cleric can raise the dead. Again, this makes sense from a game perspective, but this really puts a cramp in the internal consistency of most campaign worlds. Why should anyone fear death if they can just be raised later? Although the family of Joe Peasant couldn't afford to have him raised, kings and people in power have little to fear of death creating a powerful dynasty. Assassinations become much harder (since the person can just be raised as long as the body is intact).

First, my definition of mid-level seems pretty different than yours. Raise dead isn't available until 9th level, even putting aside house rules that might limit how many clerics know each priestly spell, 9th level is IMO a fairly high level character. If such characters are reasonably common, the problem is that you tend to deprotagonize the PC's. If you've got lots of NPCs around that could easily handle any challenge that the PC's face before 5th level, it is in my opinion harder to explain how the world needs the PC's than it would be to explain how the world functions when some people can reliably bring others back from the dead. For example, in my current campaign (now in its fourth year), in the nation that the PC's started out in, there were to my knowledge only 3 characters of 9th level or higher - and none was a cleric. Three 7th level clerics represented the highest level clerics in the whole nation. So raise dead isn't necessarily widely available.

And to the extent that it is, it's impact on the campaign world can be reasonably construed. The general path I take is the 'Grimm's Fairy Tale' rule. In the fairy tales, evil villains seeking to assassinate socially important figures just about never attempt to simply kill them. Instead, they enchant them, or polymorph them, or curse them or do things that seemingly are less effectual than slitting a throat would be. But that perspective seems entirely reasonable if raising someone from the dead is a doable thing. So yes, assassinating someone important becomes harder and requires proportionally more planning and resources. But beyond that, raising socially important figures from the dead has a huge social and legal impact. For example, present real world law has a lot of provisions for inheritance, but no real provision for disinheritance. Once someone is recognized as dead, their wealth and titles pass to their heirs. Imagine the chaos resulting from the reverse, a legitimate heir losing wealth and title because their progenitor returned to life. All is well and good if this is a welcome occasion, but it's easy to imagine situations were it is not or where it disturbs the peace. For this reason, in my game most societies make it illegal to bring someone back to life if that person has legitimate heirs. In particular, returning someone back to life in a manner that effects succession is usually impossible by social custom. It's in fact easier for a peasant to justify being brought back from the dead than a king. The only exception tends to be if it can be proved that a relative coordinate the event in order to manipulate succession to their benefit. Society has a strong incentive to prevent any possibility of a succession crisis.

3. High prevalence of magic, but no application of it: Although most D&D worlds feature absurd amounts of magic, most people still live in a psuedo-medieval society. If magic was as prevalent as it is in most D&D campaigns, I can imagine wizards getting together and applying it to society. Many people hate the idea of "magic as technology" paradigm, but if even the smallest hamlet has at least a couple of spell casters, why is all D&D magic seem to be centered around adventuring.

Yes, and no. Very few low level spells exist with profound social effects. Probably the single most important examples I can think of is create water, create food, and cure disease. These spells have profound economic consequences, but we can mostly summarize them as - these societies are much wealthier than equivalent real world societies. And I would argue that (perhaps by accident and failure of imagination) that is exactly what we see when typical D&D societies are described. Poverty is something largely missing from most D&D settings. However, I certainly agree this is a big problem in some settings where magic is very common - for example, The Forgotten Realms makes absolutely no sense IMO.

4. The default polytheistic assumption: I have nothing against the standard D&D polytheistic pantheon, but it seems to be getting a little cliched. What about different religious systems, such as pantheism (everything is part of the universal spirit), animism (worship of nature spirits), and even monotheism? One of the main problems of most D&D pantheons is that they seem so contrived. All the gods of the pantheons deal with adventuring and kicking-butt. We have war gods, death gods, fire gods, and nature gods for druids, but we usually don't have gods of fertility, or gods of the home which existed in many classical myths.

Well, that's certainly a trope of Forgotten Realms, which has probably the worst pantheon in all of fantasy. But I would argue that's not a trope of D&D generally, which often uses either real world pantheons or some better thought out polytheism such as the Lords of Heaven from Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous. Heck, your average home brew pantheon is light years beyond the FR in terms of philosophical depth.

I guess my point is that while I understand your frustration with all these things, I don't think that they are inherently problems or need to be inherently problems. If you are actually thinking about the clichés, you can easily subvert them.
 
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Wow is this thread old. I just realized. Ok, actual clichés that I really hate:

a) The PC's invent magic. That is to say, in so many games I'm in the DM has never considered how magic might alter society and so the NPCs have never prepared for magic, and as such when the PC's use a spell for even the most obvious advantage, the NPCs are completely unprepared for coping with it. Examples: merchants have never heard of illusions or other means of magical trickery and have no means of protecting themselves, society that hasn't made charming someone illegal, societies with insecure jail/prison practices unable to accommodate spell-casters, fortresses unable to protect themselves from invisible intruders, anyone seemingly oblivious to or surprised by magical effects that would be common given the prevalence of wizards in the world ("Look, the door just opened on its own. Must have been a freak occurrence and there is nothing strange going on."), wooden warships unable to deal with magical fire, or pretty much any economic investment that amount to the Maginot Line blind to inexpensive magic.

b) Barbarians: If there is one class trope I hate above all others, it's the barbarian. Everything about this class is wrong. First of all, most barbarians you actually run into in published adventures aren't actually remote wilderness tribesman, but just big tough guys living amidst mainstream civilization. So why do they still retain the flavor of being a 'barbarian'? Secondly, why must everyone from the wilderness be chaotic? We don't make the reverse assumption, that if you are a city dweller you are lawful. In fact, its highly likely that a remote tribesman has a more developed sense of place in the world, duty, respect for tradition, loyalty to kith and kin, and so forth than your average city dweller in a cosmopolitan ever changing social structure loosely based off the modern. So why do we retain this assumption that wilderness = chaotic? Ditto the same assumption with shamans.

c) Lightly armored fighters deserve the same AC as heavily armored fighters, because 'balance'. Ugh, no. That's just stupid. Not having to wear heavy armor is itself a huge advantage in every version of D&D that ever was.

d) High level mundane classed individuals are limited to what real world normal people can do. Beyond about 6th level, even if you are a fighter, rogue, or what not, your abilities are so beyond what normal people can do, that you are still superhuman even if not explicitly supernatural. By 15th level, you are The Batman. Or, you are Green Arrow. Actually, by high level, you probably are more potent and capable than either one, since the comics require plot protection to prevent heroes of that sort from actually falling off high places or taking devastating wounds - and high level D&D fighters don't. They are literally superheroic 'bricks' with magic swords that reasonably can chop through stone. You can do not just what Olympic level athletes can do, but pretty much anything you see an action movie hero do. DMs that refuse to acknowledge this, perhaps out of a misplaced desire to be 'gritty', are effectively adding a house rule that amounts to, "Play a spell caster if you want to be cool."

e) Caves are flat with level floors. Been in a real cave? Enough said.

f) Every single threat the PCs discover rises to the level of saving the world, but only the PCs are involved and every NPC is trying to thwart them no matter how obvious the threat or how trivial the aid would be to provide. NPCs with vastly more resources than the PCs are all over the place, but are uninvolved beyond having gold exclamation points over their head for no obvious reason.

All of these clichés can be fairly easily escaped and unlike escaping uniform currency or universal trades languages they have immediate benefits for your game IMO, but conscious attempts to escape them seem fairly rare.
 
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Wow is this thread old. I just realized. Ok, actual clichés that I really hate:

a) The PC's invent magic. That is to say, in so many games I'm in the DM has never considered how magic might alter society and so the NPCs have never prepared for magic, and as such when the PC's use a spell for even the most obvious advantage, the NPCs are completely unprepared for coping with it. Examples: merchants have never heard of illusions or other means of magical trickery and have no means of protecting themselves, society that hasn't made charming someone illegal, societies with insecure jail/prison practices unable to accommodate spell-casters, fortresses unable to protect themselves from invisible intruders, anyone seemingly oblivious to or surprised by magical effects that would be common given the prevalence of wizards in the world ("Look, the door just opened on its own. Must have been a freak occurrence and there is nothing strong going on."), wooden warships unable to deal with magical fire, or pretty much any economic investment that amount to the Maginot Line blind to inexpensive magic.

b) Barbarians: If there is one class trope I hate above all others, it's the barbarian. Everything about this class is wrong. First of all, most barbarians you actually run into in published adventures aren't actually remote wilderness tribesman, but just big tough guys living amidst mainstream civilization. So why do they still retain the flavor of being a 'barbarian'? Secondly, why must everyone from the wilderness be chaotic? We don't make the reverse assumption, that if you are a city dweller you are lawful. In fact, its highly likely that a remote tribesman has a more developed sense of place in the world, duty, respect for tradition, loyalty to kith and kin, and so forth than your average city dweller in a cosmopolitan ever changing social structure loosely based off the modern. So why do we retain this assumption that wilderness = chaotic? Ditto the same assumption with shamans.

c) Lightly armored fighters deserve the same AC as heavily armored fighters, because 'balance'. Ugh, no. That's just stupid. Not having to wear heavy armor is itself a huge advantage in every version of D&D that ever was.

d) High level mundane classed individuals are limited to what real world normal people can do. Beyond about 6th level, even if you are a fighter, rogue, or what not, your abilities are so beyond what normal people can do, that you are still superhuman even if not explicitly supernatural. By 15th level, you are The Batman. Or, you are Green Arrow. Actually, by high level, you probably are more potent and capable than either one, since the comics require plot protection to prevent heroes of that sort from actually falling off high places or taking devastating wounds - and high level D&D fighters don't. They are literally superheroic 'bricks' with magic swords that reasonably can chop through stone. You can do not just what Olympic level athletes can do, but pretty much anything you see an action movie hero do. DMs that refuse to acknowledge this, perhaps out of a misplaced desire to be 'gritty', are effectively adding a house rule that amounts to, "Play a spell caster if you want to be cool."

e) Caves are flat with level floors. Been in a real cave? Enough said.

f) Every single threat the PCs discover rises to the level of saving the world, but only the PCs are involved and every NPC is trying to thwart them no matter how obvious the threat or how trivial the aid would be to provide. NPCs with vastly more resources than the PCs are all over the place, but are uninvolved beyond having gold exclamation points over their head for no obvious reason.

All of these clichés can be fairly easily escaped and unlike escaping uniform currency or universal trades languages they have immediate benefits for your game IMO, but conscious attempts to escape them seem fairly rare.

OOo Ooo--so much of this is in my new 5E campaign. First off...a small outpost of goblins that were not evil were routed and killed by elves when they were driven to the surface.

a) So far the low level magic is really not game imbalancing. Though admittedly we have only a bard as caster. The warlock comes in at the next session but--not so much a problem so far.

b) I agree. my previous pathfinder homebrew had penty of barbarian characters--but I limited the game world to the four base classes--and they were fighters. Not a fan of monks or--to be honest druids either. And i posted about my problem with clerics...still i'm being open to allow the players to be what they want to be--to play the system as it is writtenw ith some very minor exceptions.

c) I agree with you here. But the second heavy armour feat adds in the damage removal aspect which is a good step. the AC system is an emulation--not a simulation. Just like hit points arent really wounds (in my game anyway) so much as knocking a dude off his pins, rattling him, taking him off his game until that last hit point damage hits home...AC is simply missing doing that kind of damage--whether it glances off the pauldron or is spun away from...

d) it's my literary base...but i hate that...my gf--who games pointed out that my sources--thieves world, lotr, elric, conan, lankhmar--are not her cup of tea at all...she likes the feist stuff---the saberhagen works--the really high powered--demi-gods as lead character stuff. Chacon son Gout...but falling damage is BS. It is the one thing I will houserule the holy hamburger out of--damage goes up fast--1d6 at 10ft, 3d at 20, 4d at 30, 7d at 40, 11d at 50 etc. Save at increments of 5 per 10 feet or drop to zero and begin making death saves. (fact: at 50- feet 95% of people die.) HALO jumping monks indeed--pshaw!

e) my caves have slippery, slopey chasmey, underground riverish effects...nothing like a hook horror attacking you while you try and navigate an 80 degree waterslick slope without sliding on your face.
 

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