What do I want? An apology.

Deimodius said:
I want an apology. I want WotC to say "We made a mistake, we thought we knew what you wanted, but we didn't. We made a mistake and we're sorry. We hope to make it up to you going forward, and we _will_ do a better job of listening to you in the future."

You're assuming that WotC thinks that they in fact did make a mistake. I don't believe they think that.
An apology will do nothing for me. Bringing back Dragon and Dungeon as print mags would work for me. (yes, I know that's not going to happen.)


OStephens said:
I am going to be curious to see how people, react -if- the DI goes well, and -if- it spreads the overall popularity of D&D. Of course, I doubt we'll even be able to measure those things in an unbiased or realistic way.

I can tell you exactly how they will react if the DI goes well. They will happily pony up their credit cards to get access. I won't be one of them, but many will. At the end of the day, all have is my own protest and my protest is to not buy the DI.
 

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Whizbang Dustyboots said:
That said, I've got $100 that there will be a periodical called Dragon on news stands five years from now, whatever happens with the DI.

I tend to agree and maybe sooner than five years, although maybe not titled Dragon.
 

I think we might get a bit more sympathy, if not an apology, than most people think. I doubt moving to DI was an easy decision, given how obvious it must have been that there would be a backdraft of emotion.


Whizbang Dustyboots said:
I've got $100 that there will be a periodical called Dragon on news stands five years from now, (. . .)


That might be the cover price, then. ;)
 

You may react however you choose. You can choose not to support the Digital Initiative. That's your right as a consumer.

But getting angry over losing a magazine? Come on. Haven't you ever had anything really BAD happen? Save your emotional energy for something that actually matters.

This is just...the way things are. Times change. Things begin. Things end. To quote Avenue Q, "Everything in Life is Only For Now."

You can choose to embrace change, accept it without embracing it, ignore it, or rail against it. Quite honestly, the last seems like a waste of effort to me. But to each their own.
 
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thedungeondelver said:
See, just lacks something. "Dragon #72." versus "Some page I saw on wizard's website."

Hmm. Speaking from experience in the Magic: the Gathering and D&D Miniatures communities, I don't think that's accurate.

The online community for games can be very important.

DDM has never been served well by magazines. It gains a lot of traction from the online community, and the way Wizards staff interact with the community and do their online previews.

Magic is similar. You find stars of the MtG online community - one of those erstwhile stars being Jamie Wakefield, who garnered a big following from his online articles. Indeed, the deckbuilding experience is one that became incredible following the adoption of the internet. (Does anyone else remember the Magic Dojo?)

I know that I've turned up at game sessions with hardcopies of information posted on the Wizards site. I don't know of anything that is going to stop me doing that with the Digital Initiative. (The first time I used the Redspawn Arcaniss, from MMIV, the book wasn't even out yet! - I'd downloaded the preview and printed it out.)

Cheers!
 

JohnSnow said:
But getting angry over losing a magazine? Come on. Haven't you ever had anything really BAD happen? Save your emotional energy for something that actually matters.

(...) But to each their own.

I'll quote myself again if you don't mind (That's just that I don't want to retype the same thing, basically):

Dragon/Dungeon, DragonLance, 4E looming around the corner, the "Digital Initiative" (whatever it may be)... all this stuff really got me upset for the past few days, and it made me think about "why" I would say such things as "my feeling right now is indeed reminiscent of the passing of my mother a year ago". Strong words indeed, which, like the words of dozens of other fans out there, are now being discarded as being a sign of "gross overreacting" (while [...] these are in fact signs of love and care for the game many people didn't even think they had in them, which is far more noble than a lot of rational thoughts I've read around).

To be frank, I did not understand "why" I reacted this emotionally, this strongly to all these events, and I needed to understand.

I don't think WotC designers are evil. I don't think R&D or Marketing guys are evil (even though I do think the situation is handled extremely poorly). I don't think WotC or Hasbro's CEOs are evil. I don't think the stock holders are evil. I don't think people are the ones who upset me on this one.

No. What upsets me, that's the system that spawns such a situation. My father was CEO of a small company. I've been working under contract with the Canadian government. I'm in love with our hobby. All these things sort of combined in my head during these past few days.

My father used to talk about what he calls "the critical mass of companies", his own pet theory that there is a point at which a given company starts to lose its humanity and sense of personal responsabilities. Decisions are not taken by any individual in particular but as a collective and shady "we" that erases all responsabilities and all moral thought to concentrate the efforts of the company towards what many call the "bottom line": the dividends stock holders get from one year to the next, which forces CEO and employees to concentrate on this as well, or they're simply out of the equation.

I do believe my dad's pet theory is true. True to a point that sort of hit home several times in my life already, but this time, with the events we are discussing here, it really went right through my heart.

What do I love so much about D&D that makes me purchase so much stuff, want to participate in the life of the game, admire the works of designers [who] make me want to do the same? That's because I love the craft. D&D is a craft by which one (a designer) crafts a tool to be used by yet another craftsman (DMs and players). There is thus an incredible connexion between the maker and the user, a line that is blurred between the guy who creates the game and the one who uses it, which are in my mind interchangeable roles (that's the concept I had behind Bifrost, the image I was using of the bridge between the gamer and the designer, that we're all the same somehow).

I think that tabletop RPGs are meant to be labors of love, of one craftsman to the other. The quality of such products as Ptolus convince me of that point I'm trying to make. So, the more a RPG company grows, the more it disconnects from the core concept of what a tabletop RPG ought to be. That could be said for any type of company vis à vis its customers, but that's particularly visible with tabletop RPGs because of their nature as a craft.

I think tabletop RPGs shouldn't be in the hands of big business and interest, to make myself clear. I think that if that means less minis, less glossy paper, PDF only... whatever, so be it. What I want is the craft. I want to see guys who love the game as much as I do share their passion with all the gamers around. What I don't want is for tabletop RPGs to be the next Mars bar you buy at the grocery store.

That makes me think "hell, if that means tabletop RPGs aren't ever going to be more popular with the grand public as they are now (regardless of the actual feasibility of the thing), so be it -I don't want them to be popular!"

That's what I'm at in my reflexions of the past few days. That's why, far from "hating" anyone at WotC, I'm really not eager to purchase anything by WotC right now. That's why I admire the way the Paizo guys are using the opportunity to create good products that genuinely pick my interest.

It all comes together in my mind.

This is not the usual "rant" for me. This is not the kind of stuff I get mad about for a couple of days and then forget about it to just buy 4E the next year. See what I mean?
 

If you're are looking for an apology....you'll only get it from the next Brand Manager of D&D (or the one after the next) 3 or 5 years in the future if and when the fallout from all of this makes it pretty clear that this was a blunder.

And if all is well and good at that time - you won't get an apology as WotC will be saying this was not a mistake and well, there it is.

Whatever the case, you won't be getting what you seek now.
 

Odhanan said:
My father used to talk about what he calls "the critical mass of companies", his own pet theory that there is a point at which a given company starts to lose its humanity and sense of personal responsabilities. Decisions are not taken by any individual in particular but as a collective and shady "we" that erases all responsabilities and all moral thought to concentrate the efforts of the company towards what many call the "bottom line": the dividends stock holders get from one year to the next, which forces CEO and employees to concentrate on this as well, or they're simply out of the equation.

That's an excellent point, and one with which I can agree. I tend to think the point at which a company loses its "soul" is about the point it starts to wonder if it should have an IPO. I could say more on that, but I'm certain it'd violate the "no politics" rule.
 

Belittling the Bashers

JohnSnow said:
You may react however you choose. You can choose not to support the Digital Initiative. That's your right as a consumer.

But getting angry over losing a magazine? Come on. Haven't you ever had anything really BAD happen? Save your emotional energy for something that actually matters.

This is just...the way things are. Times change. Things begin. Things end. To quote Avenue Q, "Everything in Life is Only For Now."

You can choose to embrace change, accept it without embracing it, ignore it, or rail against it. Quite honestly, the last seems like a waste of effort to me. But to each their own.


This is such a D&Dism. Save your anger up. You only have so many uses per day. Is this fight really worth your rage? Wait for the really BAD. lol

I have seen this argument too many times to not respond. I know people want to put the loss of Dragon/Dungeon in perspective. There has been a lot of unfettered hyperbole floating around. But do not ask if anyone has had anything BAD happen in their life. It's insulting and idiotic. Of course everyone has had something BAD happen to them. I don't care if the worst thing to happen is their pet hamster died in the 3rd grade, it was BAD. If Dragon/Dungeon being axed is the worst thing that has ever happened to them, then they are blessed but the event still sucks hard for them.
Dungeon brought a modicum of joy to my life every month. The decision to stop that joy every month makes me angry. Sorry if it doesn't cut the threshold of anger-worthy to some.
I feel the urge to express my anger and maybe ask why? Seems to be an acceptable thing to most people. I might even say its healthy.
A few posters have let their anger control them into saying some really irrational things. A good response to them might be:
"I know you're angry. I understand you are trying to express your feelings. This really isn't
really on the same scale as the burning of the library at Alexandria and there is no way WotC is going to allow Scott Rouse to be wacked on the nose with a rolled up Dungeon. It is a pretty ridiculous request if you stop and think it through. Why not just say you dislike the decision and wish they would reconsider? Maybe give them examples of what benefits the magazine provides over an all electronic publication. You can even shake your fist in righteous wrath after you hit Submit Reply, Ok"
Acknowledge that anger is a response to unpleasant news. Try to encourage them to vent their anger in a polite fashion. Point out the folly of exaggeration, hyperbole and unequal analogy. Get the enraged to think about the problem, not the supposed people. Have fun!

Grim
 

Odhanan said:
My father used to talk about what he calls "the critical mass of companies", his own pet theory that there is a point at which a given company starts to lose its humanity and sense of personal responsabilities. Decisions are not taken by any individual in particular but as a collective and shady "we" that erases all responsabilities and all moral thought to concentrate the efforts of the company towards what many call the "bottom line": the dividends stock holders get from one year to the next, which forces CEO and employees to concentrate on this as well, or they're simply out of the equation.

I do believe my dad's pet theory is true. True to a point that sort of hit home several times in my life already, but this time, with the events we are discussing here, it really went right through my heart.
While I agree, I hope you're not implying that this action by WotC was shady, immoral or lacking in personal responsibility.
 

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