D&D 3E/3.5 What do you ban? (3.5)

[ProfessorCirno]

There's some bomb third party stuff out there. Dreamscarred is better at psionics then WotC is.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Such a person IMO would have a pretty unique combination of imagination, knowledge, and acting ability, given that in my experience probably only 1 player in 4 is actually capable of playing any other character but themselves and in typical groups that player has taken up the mantle of Game Master and uses the talent to run memorable NPC's.

Then, indeed, our mileage has varied, and considerably at that. I am not surprised, all things considered.

The vast majority of people can't even play a character whose ethical beliefs or social background markedly departs from their own to any convincing degree.

So you say. In your experience, that might even be so. Maybe. But to extend it out to the world in general? Yeah. Sure. I can see you have convinced yourself of certain "truths". Definitely. But that is all that is clearly the case here.

I say these things as someone whose played with probably a dozen groups and 50 or so gamers in person, numerous others is one-shots, and numerous more online. The number of people out there that can be convincing elves and vampires is pretty small, much less things that are even further removed from human mentality. But they are out there and if one of them made an alien character I'd probably look forward to the experience.

Yes. *sigh* They are out there. Just as are - many - writers, and even actors, who can and do get into the heads of various other beings. Hell, even empathy itself is a similar, if not identical ability. And many, many people indeed - all, to some extent, in fact - possess that one. To put yourself in someone else's shoes, as the saying has it, really is doing more or less the same thing.

I will however note that my observations about the commonality of RPers with actual skill at method acting an alien, pretty much equates both with the relative paucity of well realized aliens in science fiction despite the fact that science fiction writers are what you might call experts in imagination and speculation and the relative paucity of Hollywood actors with true range despite often having remarkable sceen presence. Sure, there are a small number of RPers out there who are Gordon R. Dickenson meets Dustin Hoffman but there aren't a lot of them. And in my experience, they don't need "hill giant were-orcas" to play something memorable.

Oh, ferscrissakes. Where did the "to play something memorable" snootiness enter in? And why. I mean, really. True, it matches the tone of much of the remainder of the post well enough. Still, you could "refrain" there as well, I am sure. People might simply want to play something alien, and actually manage to do pretty damn well at it too. Not to prove anything, and not because it's necessarily going to be more memorable. But simply because it's one of many options, and it happens to be the one that is desirable at that point. Simple as that.

And the fact that you consider so many writers to be lacking in this way - not to mention actors, of course! - while seemingly holding your own talents (and wisdom, let it be said!) in such high regard... well. No, never mind. There's really nothing to be said to that. Not that, even if there was, it would apparently have the remotest chance of sinking in. So... yeah.

All of this is tangental, however. Even supposing that we want to play a truly wierd game, perhaps something similar to China Meiville's creepy world of a thousand bizarrely and improbably alien species, it doesn't perforce follow that late 3.5's 600+ unbalanced prestige classes (many too weak, many too powerful) and dozens of narrowly defined inflexible base classes is remotely good way to get there. But, and again, I think I'm perfectly within my rights as a DM to say, "We aren't playing in a creepy world of 1000 bizarre and improbable aliens. We are playing in a world of dark faerie tales and high fantasy - HP Lovecraft meets the Brothers Grimm meet Tolkien. Come up with a concept and we'll talk about implementation, or look to the mechanics for inspiration."

Dear gods. Hyperbole again? To put it mildly, at that.

*sigh*

Just... just never mind. Not the place for what needs to be said.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I'd like to plead with everyone, one last time, to simply stop arguing over old topics, and continue to contribute to the original topic. Thank you.

 

[Celebrim]

Then, indeed, our mileage has varied, and considerably at that.

Every small town in the southern United States is convinced it has the best BBQ in the world. Whether you believe that indeed depends on your milage.

Sure. I can see you have convinced yourself of certain "truths". Definitely. But that is all that is clearly the case here.

Back at you.

Your whole post is one bit of snarky accusation that I'm being arrogant while once again pretending to the moral high ground so that you can freely insult people without thinking of yourself as the insulting kind.

Ok, maybe I'll buy the arrogance, I'm prone to do that, but your the one who is claiming special skill - empathy, acting ability, imagination, etc. is incredibly common amongst you and yours. My claims don't require me to say anything special about myself. The only trait that I would claim for myself is the ability to see things differently from the way other people see them, and whether first I speak truly and modestly when I say I have that, and whether that is a gift or a curse (or both) I'll leave up to other people to judge.

If you want to say that you are incredibly empathetic, theatrical, imaginitive or whatever, then I've no basis or reason for disagreeing with you. You may well be. But if you want to say such traits are found commonly, all that does is make you seem like the guy who thinks his small town produces the best BBQ in the world.

They are out there. Just as are - many - writers, and even actors, who can and do get into the heads of various other beings.

I didn't say there weren't. But many is a very imprecise term. There might be a dozen per hundred thousand and so tens of thousands capable of the feat across the country. That's alot of people, but not so many that if you go looking for it you'll easily stumble across it. You see, if the ability were so common, we wouldn't prize it so much when we found it. The economic value of being a really good actor wouldn't amount to much. If 10's of thousands of people could throw a perfect spiral out of a three step drop, Peyton Manning wouldn't make nearly as much money.

Hell, even empathy itself is a similar, if not identical ability. And many, many people indeed - all, to some extent, in fact - possess that one.

I suppose so. But for a trait that you claim is so pervasive, it's terribly hard to find a lot of evidence that the talent is put to much use. Try to find a board on the internet where people excercise that talent to put themselves in the other's shoes and consider each person's opinion carefully more often than they do not.

People might simply want to play something alien, and actually manage to do pretty damn well at it too. Not to prove anything, and not because it's necessarily going to be more memorable. But simply because it's one of many options, and it happens to be the one that is desirable at that point. Simple as that.

Oh, I agree.

Let me relate a story along those lines. The very best group of RPers I was ever a part of decided to start a new Chill campaign. So all created investigators. We ended up with I think a drugged out Jamaican Bush pilot, a dutch pre-teen runaway, a korean martial artist, a Mossad agent, a Central American war journalist, and an Egyptian expert in antiquities. We met, glanced over each other character sheets, drooled at the possibilities of RP promised therein, confirmed we were covering our skill bases and had enough combat ability, and set down to play. After some prepratory RP that went quite well, the DM duly revealed our mission - investigate supernatural occurances in a KKK stronghold. Everyone stopped and stared. There was one basic problem with our group - everyone had done something that was just a little bit too creative. We could cover the skills, but none of us had the remotest chance of appearing to be normal. We had no way to legimately roleplay blending in. No one knew what to do. We couldn't even hide out somewhere while sending the 'face' guys in. The campaign folded after one session, and I learned a valuable lesson both as a player and a DM.

Those characters weren't even that 'wacky', and yet, we'd all inadvertently produced a situation that none of us could enjoy.

And the fact that you consider so many writers to be lacking in this way - not to mention actors, of course! - while seemingly holding your own talents (and wisdom, let it be said!) in such high regard... well.

I've never created a truly original alien race. I've never published a novel; I've never acted in a play. I get terrible stage fright in front of strangers. I'm not a Gordon R. Dickenson or a Dustin Hoffman either. And I never said that I was. I've been told I make especially memorable NPCs (and PCs), but I also know that there are some sorts of characters I just can't successfully pull off.

And I was far from dismissive of actors and writers generally. I'm merely trying to point out that even where you'd expect to find it, the ability to get outside of your head is fairly rare. I can rave about the acting ability John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Jimmy Stewert, Clint Eastwood, Harrison Ford, Sean Connery, Mel Gibson or Denzel Washington. These are people who can carry a movie by themselves. And many other names would come to mind. But no one I think in the movie industry, least of all those actors themselves, would tell you that they are actors with incredible range. You are never going to mistake them for anyone but themselves, and in every movie they basically play a single persona. That doesn't make them bad actors, nor am I in any fashion insulting them. It just means that they don't have the same skill set as Lon Chaney or Dustin Hoffman. And hooray for variaty.

And the same sorts of things can generally be said of writers. Some have special gifts of wordsmithing. Some have special gifts of story telling. Others have special gifts of imagination. Some have agreeably amounts of all three. But in the 300+ science fiction stories I've read, maybe a handful have aliens that are anything but humans with a slightly different shape. Most sci-fi authors, even really good ones, don't even try for more than a pastiche because they above all people know how hard it is. Get that alien on and off the stage before anyone notices just how single diminsional or unalien it is.

No, never mind. There's really nothing to be said to that. Not that, even if there was, it would apparently have the remotest chance of sinking in. So... yeah.

You know, if you really believed any of that, you wouldn't have bothered to post. And if there really is nothing to be said, would it be asking to much for you to not bother saying it?

Dear gods. Hyperbole again? To put it mildly, at that.

Huh? Ok, I confess a complete failure of empathy there - I have no idea what you are seeing.

 

[CuRoi]

Back to the topic at hand:

Did I miss something, or is it that everybody's cool with Divine Power, Forcecage, Gate and Creation spells ?

I actually like Gate. I let it be known that it isn't just for cherry picking outsiders from the Monster Manual. There are some serious story implications for messing with outsiders whether asking them to do something or simply trespassing in their space. It allows me to flex my creative muscles as a DM : )

Divine Power, I've never been a fan of. I can tolerate the spell, however I do not allow attmepts to make it permanent whether through items or feats.

Forcecage - I use it on the players as a DM, so it's only fair...

Creation - really haven't had to deal with this one much yet, so no real opinion. I can definitely see how it could become a problem, but until something comes up in game, I generally let it go as written.

I play pretty vanilla rules games so I can focus on story. I've run a single campaign that spans 10 years real time with nothing but the SRD and it works out fine.

That said, I don't play that way because I ban things - I'll look at anything a player brings whether it is home brew, WotC or third party. I may make adjustments to suit the power level of our game (generally low). Most players though, even if they have access to other supplements are happy to play plain core rules. Its the story that gets them hooked.

I think it is all about your group and what they like to do as far as any "banning" is concerned. My group likes useful rules but not when rules start to overwhelm the story. Of course my group has always been a mix of RPers and Power Gamers...and a very strong representation of female gamers. (Right now we've got a female majority and not for the first time.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Divine Power: THe duration is too short ot use out of combat usually, so the lost turn and cost of using the spell each combat makes it not too obscene. I do ban Persistent Spell, so there's no means of getting around the duration issue.

Forcecage: The cost per use is INSANE. As a PC, I would never ever use it, it may win the battle, but it'll cost you the war. Meaning that in the long term, even just occasional use of this spell will so hurt your pocketbook that you're actually crippling yourself. It is decent for NPCs. The thing is, though, even when an NPC is using it, it's far from insta-win. Low level teleportation magic gives it the bird and has no component costs. Polymorphing spells can potentially let you slip through the bars. It's pretty pathetically easy to counter for such a high level and costly spell. Also, it's Evocation, the poor school deserves some nice spells. Not that I consider this one of them.
/brutal honesty

Creation spells: I don't ban them, I just nerf my interpretation to not let them create expensive minerals or gobs of poison, or whatever other broken uses people find loopholes that it allows for.

Gate: This spell is definitely OP. Currently I just have a nerf that you can't control things that come though that are higher CR than you, but it does need a much better nerf beating. The thing is I don't really ever go to level 17+ and I like the non-broken uses of the spell and its flavor, so I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

And hurray for the thread getting back on topic! Maybe the thread will once again be an enjoyable read.

 

[Celebrim]

I play pretty vanilla rules games so I can focus on story. I've run a single campaign that spans 10 years real time with nothing but the SRD and it works out fine.

That said, I don't play that way because I ban things - I'll look at anything a player brings whether it is home brew, WotC or third party. I may make adjustments to suit the power level of our game (generally low).

That's a really important point that no one has brought up before.

If a player brought a feat, spell or even class to the table from something not in the house rules, and said, "Can I have this?", it would certainly be considered. I'm pretty much willing to smith or adopt anything that fits a concept and the setting, is reasonably balanced, and isn't simply mechanical variation on an existing mechanically supported ability. I probably wouldn't add a new class to the game, and I certainly wouldn't break my ban on PrCs, but if some player brought a PrC to the table and said, "I'd like to do some of things this class does", there is a good chance I'd add new feats, or new skill uses, or a new Champion portfolio, or a new Sorcerer bloodline, or whatever to the rules to accomodate that.

I'm not banning individual abilities nor am I banning concepts (indeed, I'm trying to allow for generic fantasy concepts), but I have a general design for the game in mind and that is what I mean by 'banning' certain things.

In practice, this almost never happens. I have had only one player so far who had a lot of 3.5 experience before joining my table, and he seems to appreciate what I'm trying to accomplish (having had bad experiences with playing a Frenzied Beserker, etc.). Plus, I'm always mining supplements (and my own imagination) for ideas, so I generally encorporate things before they are actually asked for.

 

[Eman Resu]

look there is really very simple solutions to balance game play, that is to balance the "power" between classes. Most notable differentiation of power is between spell caster/manefesters and all others. Spontaneous spell casters & (Psions), Sorcerers, Favored Souls, even Psions are classes that are born with a gift, an ability that most others don’t have. There ability should be considered untrained, and as such unpredictable. Theses classes cant be found in anybody, its either in your blood or not. You couldn’t just randomly pick anybody off the streets and train him how to be a sorcerer. Whereas trained spell casters such as Warmage, Clerics, Duskblade, Beguiler, Druids & Wizard are taught and learn thru training; anybody, given the required attribute score, could be trained to become a Wizard.
Plausible solutions
1) Untrained/natural born or “awakened” casters such as Psions Sorcerers & Favored Souls are randomly selected by, ?, to have “the gift”. Although they may study to hone their talents, specializing in certain disciplines that narrow their spell/power selection, they lack the ability to select, on their own free will, what spells/powers they will learn in the future. The DM could allow the player to pick the school or discipline the player has an interest in but the spell learned should be randomly selected, via a roll. And 1 time per level the player would be allowed to reroll a newly acquired spell but then must stick with the results.
What does this do? It allows the spell caster to slightly refine his list with the re rolling of 1 selection per level and selecting the school/discipline list from which he will roll. This will stop the untrained classes from having a perfect well rounded selection of spells. But remember the bad guys have to abide by same random selection. I love this idea! Is it perfect, no way, but it sure would be fun to roll good spells!
2) Trained classes should simply have their spell selection limited, kept in ck. Wizards will have to find and buy scrolls books etc to get new spells and/or pay to be trained, guild fees etc. So many times every town has a magic shop, with hundreds of thousands of gp’s worth of magics just laying around. Of course these shops have security but as rogues, cutthroats, competing mages and every greedy sob out there will tell ya “theres ways around that” In our campaigns we therefore limit spell & magic shops to guilds. Spellcasters join these guilds for access to magic, protection and to hang with like minded individuals. Oh sure they cost money to join, and there is always guild monthly/yearly fees that need to be paid, and there extremely competitive with one another, sometimes lethally. IMC, the biggest guild selling magical items is The Red Wizards of Thay, IMC they have cornered the market in most large towns and are eagerly looking to branch out elsewhere. Sure a lot of their items are made by enslaved and/or evil Wizards, but whos going to argue they will sell to anybody. So they are a guild of sorts, but with less morale boundaries. Ya want a sword of Angel, Paladin even Wizard slaying you say (doesn’t slay red wizards of course) OK, heres the price. Oh and of course they actively seek to remove other magics from hapless owners, so they also serve as a fence, pond shop.
As far as Clerics and Druids go they need to select spells for the day via their gods or other energies that grant spell power. Whos to say the spells the Cleric wants are exactly the list he gets, maybe he to can roll from a list selected from school of players choice.
And as far as craft item feats, nobody just knows how, this is a trained only ability and IMC again you must be a member of a guild and these requests will cost you dearly, as the making of the magics is a big big part of their business’s lifeblood. Only the most guild loyal, PROVEN loyal are taought these special abilities, and not to many are allowed to be taught to any one mage unless he be one of the guilds elders, councilmen, leaders.

Eman Resu

 

[Ranes]

For the first time in a long time, I'm marking this thread as one to read again, and more closely.

Celebrim, I get your rationale. Shame you're not ready to post that doc. Greg, I like your list. Jameson, your pleas do not fall on deaf ears.

Thanks all.

 

[Ranes]

I had to cut my last reply short. (Lunch breaks are never long enough.)

In the spirit of answering the OP, I've always banned PrCs, for exactly the reasons that Celebrim outlined (although, like him, I've always been willing to consider including a non-core mechanic, regardless of its origin). Actually, the prestige bard (from UA?) is one PrC I do allow, albeit a tweaked version, because I don't allow the core class.

I have banned several classes, including paladins, druids, warlocks, beguilers and duskblades. I don't allow anything from the Book of Nine Swords. I've always been on the verge of banning or limiting polymorph-type spells but no one's abused them in any game I've run, so they're still there. I've tried accommodating psionics but it hasn't sat well in any of my campaigns thus far, so they're out by default, but it's possible they'll feature in a future campaign sometime.

I ban players from playing any evil alignment. I strongly believe that evil characters only work if everyone in the group is playing evil or neutral characters. Even then, I don't want to DM a group that wants to indulge in dark-side fantasies.

There are probably some other things I can't think of right now.

In general, I allow non-core material on a case-by-case basis. And I'd much rather modify something (orb spells, for example) than ban them, if at all possible.

Also, although I don't consider it banning, I don't necessarily accommodate every idea at my (or the players') disposal in every game I run, for reasons previous posters have explained so eloquently.