D&D 5E What do you do when your players are gunshy?

[Rhenny]

Lots of good advice in this thread so far.

It is inevitable that at some time over a long period of play with the same players there will be some sort of burn out. I agree with what others have said, but I also believe that burn out is some of the issue with your table.

Taking a break, having other person DM, could help.

Depending on the group, here are some other options:

1) Change the genre of the game some how. When I started to experience a little burn out, and I felt that the players were becoming too predictable and "boring" during my long standing 3.5e campaign, the PCs did something that gave me a chance to change the environment from classical D&D/medieval Europe to post-apocalyptic United States (ala...Darwin's World or Gamma World). The complete change of genre woke the players up. They started exploring with an authentic curiosity. (It helped that I was DMing for 5 NASA scientists and one of their teenage sons). In this new world/environment, they really didn't know what was happening and the change of pace was refreshing.

2) Invite a new player or two into the game. Sometimes the entire group needs an outsider to add diversity and fresh perspective/enthusiasm.

3) Play for an audience. One thing that has helped my games is when I make the players more aware that I will be writing up the adventure summaries to post in the Story Hour on ENWorld. This reminds them that our games are about story telling and doing interesting things. If you set it up and the players buy into it, it can tone down the bickering and focus your campaign on risk taking, cool antics, and other story driven aspects. I have not DMd on camera yet, but in one game I played, the DM broadcasted it on Google+ Hangout. During that game, I felt an interesting urgency and sense of performer's adrenaline. That actually helped me play my character and I had a terrific, exciting time during that game session. (alas..it was only 1 session during the Playtest, but I really enjoyed the sense of being on stage to some extent).

I hope all works out for you and your group, but sometimes, the mix of players and the way they interact with each other is something that can't be fixed. You'll have to find out from them if that's the case.

Cheers.

 

[innerdude]

I'm of a mind that this sounds like a case of needing to "shake it up" a bit from the usual. Get out of "heroic fantasy" for a while. Try some sci-fi, post-apc, urban fantasy, etc. just to get the creative juices flowing again.

If that doesn't sound amenable to your players, the thing I've found with campaigns that "peter out" from lack of interest (and not just your usual "life happens and we don't have time to play"), is that the characters in-game aren't connected enough to anything that really matters.

Whether that's a family member, an obligation, an oath to a kingdom or order, or a personal code, a player using a character without some motivation other than "kill things and take their stuff" eventually burns out. Once you've got epic armor, weapons, and magic items, does it make any more sense to go after "just one more epic encounter"?

How "plugged in" are your players/characters to the fiction of your world? Can you give them more freedom to do some of their own world-building that will keep them interested?

For the character who doesn't want to fight the frost giant king, step back to a 30,000 foot view and say, "What happens if the party just walks away, right now?" Sometimes the answer to that question is an interesting stepping stone to something the players REALLY want.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You've pretty much described my players in the OP. My sandbox has a lot of moving parts and pieces in it, including some major threats (dragons, invading hobgoblin armies, etc.) and the players have spent most of the campaign avoiding those threats instead of dealing with them, and looking for easy money in dungeons or taking on ridiculously hard fights for no reason. (E.g. ramming and boarding the neogi deathspider they meet in outer space.) I can't quite figure out the pattern, but suffice to say that they never engage with any foe that I expect them to engage with, except for once (high-level fighter challenged them to single combat).

So, agreeing with the good advice you've already been given, I'd hypothesize that your players are looking for something easier and more relaxing. Build them an adventure that's suitable for level 5 characters instead of level 10 characters and run them through that, so they can feel cool and powerful instead of vulnerable and stressed*.

* The thing is, feeling vulnerable and stressed is an entirely realistic state of mind for PCs who are constantly facing deadly threats. That's PTSD for you. But if your players don't want to experience that same state of mind, they, unlike the PCs, have the option of simply stopping the game. And so do you.

 

[GSHamster]

I had another thought. Do you remember the Combat as War/Combat as Sport thread/idea?

It really sounds like you are a Combat as Sport person, where you like to set up a well-balanced combat between the two sides that ends in close victory for one side.

Your players might be Combat as War players, where they always try to rig the scenario in their favor, and thus make actual combat a more one-sided affair (in their favor).

If this is the case, you might be unintentionally blunting their CAW instincts and actions, favoring your own CAS instincts. Thus your players are constantly being forced into "fair" fights which they don't want, and are unhappy.

 

[jgsugden]

This is a common problem. DMs know that a good story has challenges, twists and turns. However, the characters in a lot of stories have greater attention spans and more desire to see things through than players. Accordingly, you need to give them more incentive to keep on going... which means every PC needs a moment to shine in every game - and if they have a setback, there should be a silver lining that still feels like a success. It is like the NFL. The locker rooms with problems are the ones that are having trouble winning. The best fix: A few wins in a row.

Drop a side quest on them - and make sure it is something that looks like a challenge, but something that they're well situated to handle. Glass jaws on some of the enemies (low wisdom saves, bad tactics that the PCs can take advantage of, etc...) that let the heroes have decisive victories will get you back on track to fun fast.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

They're acting like people who don't understand the way your world works. They don't know the rules, so they're guessing and second guessing every action. If they just had something concrete to work on, which would result in a clear and unmitigated success, they'd perk right back up.

4) then player 4 said "Well if this were 3rd edition I would go invisible, sneak in and steal the artifact, but 5e doesn't let you go out on your own..."

For example, this player seems to be under the impression that using their abilities is entirely pointless, which is a clear sign that as player, they feel like they don't understand the rules of game. I don't just mean the editions rules, I mean that they feel like if they try to come up a plan based on what they know they can do, it will fail no matter what.

To be perfectly honest, I just recommend stepping away from the game for a while. Do a board-game night, and most importantly, try to talk to each player and get some private feedback from them on how they feel the game is going, what they like about it, what they don't, etc. For advice on to do so, check out this article from the Angry GM.

 

[Rhenny]

They're acting like people who don't understand the way your world works. They don't know the rules, so they're guessing and second guessing every action. If they just had something concrete to work on, which would result in a clear and unmitigated success, they'd perk right back up.



For example, this player seems to be under the impression that using their abilities is entirely pointless, which is a clear sign that as player, they feel like they don't understand the rules of game. I don't just mean the editions rules, I mean that they feel like if they try to come up a plan based on what they know they can do, it will fail no matter what.

To be perfectly honest, I just recommend stepping away from the game for a while. Do a board-game night, and most importantly, try to talk to each player and get some private feedback from them on how they feel the game is going, what they like about it, what they don't, etc. For advice on to do so, check out this article from the Angry GM.

Good point. I don't see how 5e doesn't let you go invisible and go out on your own. Our rogues scout ahead a lot in 5e. Sure, sometimes they get caught, but not always, and often they can gain great recon information or help us surprise foes.

If this is something that the players want to do, give them chances to do it.

The advice I see, the more I think that it is a mismatch between what the players want and what the DM/campaign gives them. Like some said earlier, it seems like they want to have more power and a more casual gaming experience. You can use 5e to give them that if you choose to do so.

 

[Rhenny]

So, agreeing with the good advice you've already been given, I'd hypothesize that your players are looking for something easier and more relaxing. Build them an adventure that's suitable for level 5 characters instead of level 10 characters and run them through that, so they can feel cool and powerful instead of vulnerable and stressed*.

* The thing is, feeling vulnerable and stressed is an entirely realistic state of mind for PCs who are constantly facing deadly threats. That's PTSD for you. But if your players don't want to experience that same state of mind, they, unlike the PCs, have the option of simply stopping the game. And so do you.

I agree with your diagnosis, Doctor. Good call.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

My first attempt to post a reply got a bit wordy and a bit..."sharp". I'll sum up. I'll be blunt, so get ready for some tough love!

I think your players are just sick and tired of trying to follow your story. Players aren't stupid, and "plot lines" are almost always so telegraphed that a player can see them a mile away. This means that your players probably feel like they "have to" follow your story...or they won't be able to play because you haven't "prepared anything else".

Lets break it down a bit:

The PCs are members of the Knights of Highland, and are the prophesied heroes.

Was this something they decided they wanted to do for a campaign? Or did you just kinda say "This is the next campaign"?

So a few games ago I let them dictate the adventurer a bit.

Red Alert! Red Alert! Red Alert! Sorry... So, uh, you "decided" to "let them" do something? You do know that, as DM, you don't get to decide what they do in the first place, right? They, as players, should be deciding what their PC's do because of in-game campaign stuff...not because of some metagame "this is the adventure, so we have to do it" thing.

**Stuff about the whole Ice-Giants thing...**

I think the straw was that they were "cleaver" in sneaking about after they initially messed up and raised the alarm...and they successfully did some sneaking about, with a specific goal of retrieving the 4th part...made it to the obvious treasure vault...and then had the rug yanked out from under them. Sure, you didn't just "decide" that the King had the artifact piece on him (right?), but from the players perspective, that's exactly what it seems like. They played well and pretty much bypassed the whole adventure...and "the Evil DM" didn't like that, so he cheated by moving the artifact piece to the pocket of the King so that they (Party) have to fight him. Thus, making ALL of their previous play choices and successes meaningless.

(sounds harsh, sorry...but I think your group is in serious trouble...)

As for the Four Points. you have...

1) If the PC's don't go wandering off into "monster infested areas" they probably shouldn't encounter many monsters. I mean, if hippogriffs, ogres, displacer beasts, minotaurs, and hoards of goblins constantly attacked farmers, travelers, small hamlets, etc...well, civilization would not have actually came about. So...this is likely a PC 'choice'; don't want to fight monsters, don't go too far off into monster territory. You, as DM, should have what is referred to as a "monster ecology"...if some area is known to have griffins roosting in the cliff side, then there will simply not be a small town at it's base, or a road that travels right by it. Stick to the roads...worry about bandits and highwaymen.

2) Half want to keep going, half don't. You guys are already invested in these PC's...I'd say stick to it. But I'd "advance" the campaign time a few months to a year. Let the players tell you what their PC's have been doing during this 'downtime' (no "adventuring" or "building a keep"...tell them to keep it relatively mundane and 'boring').

3) ...he's kinda right. The HP inflation is the only thing in the core rules of 5e that me and my group are finding..."annoying". Not sure what you can do about this though... maybe just change Critical Hits to some house rule? Maybe "Critical = At least average damage per die"; so 3d12+6 would be 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 = 24 or better; no doubling damage).

4) Out of your hands. If player 4 can't learn to stop thinking in 3.x/PF/4e terms, too bad. Nothing you can do. *shrug* Basically, 5e is not 3.5e...plain and simple.

Anyway...bottom line is: Keep playing the same guys. Advance the timeline so that there can be a significant 'downtime'. Start the next session off with "So, you all decided to meet up at the Golden Yak tavern for Midsummers Eve festivities and to catch up on what everyone's been doing these past months. What do you do?". No mysterious stranger dilevering a message. No attack by enraged demons. No assassins lurking in the shadows, waiting to attack the moment they can. Just a tavern, filled with drunken revelers and the smell of booze, sweat, and smoke, and the sounds of laughter, dancing and a trio-band. What the PC's do is up to them. Completely up to them.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I want to thank everyone for the advice, I just got home from putting togather toys for my neice and nephew and am a bit tired so I think PMING was the one to ask the most...

Hiya!

My first attempt to post a reply got a bit wordy and a bit..."sharp". I'll sum up. I'll be blunt, so get ready for some tough love!

OK... I will try to take it... but it does seam you have a few misconceptions....

now you didn't mention level, but someone did... the party is half way from 16 to 17 for the record and again the frost giants are CR8 normally, 9 when I add a fighter type bonus to them, and 13 for the king....

I think your players are just sick and tired of trying to follow your story.

that is possible, but I like to think it is OUR story not my story...

Players aren't stupid, and "plot lines" are almost always so telegraphed that a player can see them a mile away.

yea, sometimes they are... I like to telegraph so they know what they are getting into... but sometimes I have odd twists (like in this campaign the first 9ish levels they though there king was evil, and was going to be an issue, BUT when the revel came around that he was a great guy just hideing secretes (that they now know) it was lots of fun...but that was levels and months ago)

This means that your players probably feel like they "have to" follow your story...or they won't be able to play because you haven't "prepared anything else".

I really doubt that... we are pretty open (except like I side for a bit of twists here and there) they know what parts of the world are maped and what aren't out of game and they know I have a dozen or so plots ready and that I improvise pretty good... some times (rarely) I have to sAY "Um... doing that will hit a loading screen" witch is our joke about video games. I have only 3 times in the last 16 years said "Um we can't go there...I got nothing" and one of those times was a player we don't have anymore who purposely asked if I had maped the dwarven home land and then said "Ok then lets fo search for dwarves"

Was this something they decided they wanted to do for a campaign? Or did you just kinda say "This is the next campaign"?

we have a wiki we keep and I have at any point 3-4 campaign ideas up and we vote on what's next... in this case 2 of the PCs asked back 2 campaigns ago (playtest not even 5e proper) if I would make up a knightly order and have them all be from it....so I guess both...

Red Alert! Red Alert! Red Alert! Sorry... So, uh, you "decided" to "let them" do something?

yea, I let them dictate NPC reactions instead of doing it myself...

You do know that, as DM, you don't get to decide what they do in the first place, right? They, as players, should be deciding what their PC's do because of in-game campaign stuff...not because of some metagame "this is the adventure, so we have to do it" thing.

I'm not sure what you mean... they didn't like stories so I metagamed those stories into the background even though in game they did things that would cause them to react.....

**Stuff about the whole Ice-Giants thing...**

I think the straw was that they were "cleaver" in sneaking about after they initially messed up and raised the alarm...and they successfully did some sneaking about, with a specific goal of retrieving the 4th part...made it to the obvious treasure vault...and then had the rug yanked out from under them. Sure, you didn't just "decide" that the King had the artifact piece on him (right?), but from the players perspective, that's exactly what it seems like. They played well and pretty much bypassed the whole adventure...and "the Evil DM" didn't like that, so he cheated by moving the artifact piece to the pocket of the King so that they (Party) have to fight him. Thus, making ALL of their previous play choices and successes meaningless.

well the adventure and the vault thing were set up 5 or 6 levels ago... they were warned about his habbet of bait and switch and were told he didn't trust spell casters... but they figured the magic vault was the answer... I'm not sure if I should have switched to a gimme answer at that point. Maybe your right, but it feels wrong to me.

As for the Four Points. you have...

1) If the PC's don't go wandering off into "monster infested areas" they probably shouldn't encounter many monsters. I mean, if hippogriffs, ogres, displacer beasts, minotaurs, and hoards of goblins constantly attacked farmers, travelers, small hamlets, etc...well, civilization would not have actually came about. So...this is likely a PC 'choice'; don't want to fight monsters, don't go too far off into monster territory. You, as DM, should have what is referred to as a "monster ecology"...if some area is known to have griffins roosting in the cliff side, then there will simply not be a small town at it's base, or a road that travels right by it. Stick to the roads...worry about bandits and highwaymen.

fair point... My kingdom (the highlands) has 5 sub states, and the capitol city state. In the capitol and 3 of the 5 sub states there are not combat encounters... and they know it. (it was 2 of 5 but PCs stoped the merfok invasion to the south back at level 7ish) It's the North that boarders the land of always shadow and the giant's territory, and the east that boarders a dessert with a super mummy lich king on it's south half and the hoard lands of orcs and hobgoblins with some goblins and gnolls to the north half... Now the dragons they pissed off on the moon (by stealing there holy relic and pissing on there god's bones) could attack them anywhere, and they just 4 or 5 levels ago found out about the underdark.

2) Half want to keep going, half don't. You guys are already invested in these PC's...I'd say stick to it. But I'd "advance" the campaign time a few months to a year. Let the players tell you what their PC's have been doing during this 'downtime' (no "adventuring" or "building a keep"...tell them to keep it relatively mundane and 'boring').

that idea was brought up but also caused a fight since it would 'help' people who want to build armies and magic items and 'hurt' people who don't....

3) ...he's kinda right. The HP inflation is the only thing in the core rules of 5e that me and my group are finding..."annoying". Not sure what you can do about this though... maybe just change Critical Hits to some house rule? Maybe "Critical = At least average damage per die"; so 3d12+6 would be 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 = 24 or better; no doubling damage).

I don't know, the funny thing is he has a homebrew magic sword that crits 19+ and instead of double dice adds +10d6 fire damage and he loves it when he crits....





I'm going to post on our wiki your idea...