What do you like about 4e?

Knight-of-Roses

Historian of the Absurd
Like, the idea of the ritual system, but not how it actually works.

More tactical flexibility/everyone gets to do neat stuff is a neat concept. However, in my limited play experience, I have not seen that the actual execution of 4e combat is that much superior to 3.x.

Non-magical ways to heal. But not that everyone can get beat down and just 'get better' by resting for 10 minutes. Non-magical ways to heal, good. Knowing you can fully heal after every fight with minimal use of resources, not so good.

So, yeah, for every mechanic plus there is a minus.

I like quite a bit of the flavor writing though . . .
 

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Crashy75

First Post
Like, the idea of the ritual system, but not how it actually works.

More tactical flexibility/everyone gets to do neat stuff is a neat concept. However, in my limited play experience, I have not seen that the actual execution of 4e combat is that much superior to 3.x.

Non-magical ways to heal. But not that everyone can get beat down and just 'get better' by resting for 10 minutes. Non-magical ways to heal, good. Knowing you can fully heal after every fight with minimal use of resources, not so good.

So, yeah, for every mechanic plus there is a minus.

I like quite a bit of the flavor writing though . . .

I agree with everything in this post.
 

Crashy75

First Post
So many spells that may have been useful in combat now take ten minutes to cast.

I can see Raise Dead or a conjuring spell being a ritual, but leave most of the rest alone.


I agree about the casting time and $ issue. (I'm sure I saw a decent fix somewhere around here. Also, when I get time I will be checking out Kerrick's ritual system). Though, I think some rituals could/should take a long time to cast (though that would mostly be in the plot related dm domain (evil priest casting a rare ritual to free a world-devouring Old One for example.)
 

Grazzt

Demon Lord
I like that monsters don't follow the same rules as PCs.

I like condensed skills, and the elimination of skill points.

The idea of a healing surge is neat.

I think that in general, the economy of actions is handled better.

Having a distinction between rituals and spells is probably a good idea.

I don't like 4e classes, which is what prevents me from playing much.

Pretty much agree with Starwed myself
 

Hereticus

First Post
I agree about the casting time and $ issue. (I'm sure I saw a decent fix somewhere around here. Also, when I get time I will be checking out Kerrick's ritual system). Though, I think some rituals could/should take a long time to cast (though that would mostly be in the plot related dm domain (evil priest casting a rare ritual to free a world-devouring Old One for example.)

You are right, but I was talking about spells that may have been used during an encounter.

Not that I would put this past anyone to do so, but it is a rare occasion when some one tries to summon a demon lord during a battle or while negotiating with the city guard.

Yes, some rituals should be very time consuming and very expensive.
 

UncleSquirrel

First Post
Main likes from 4e:

- Greater numbers of HP, especially at 1st level - gives a higher-precision granularity for players to be able to be wounded without being killed.

- Ability score purchase system (pg. 17, Method 2).

- At-will cantrips.

- More stuff for fighter types to do in combat.

- The idea of per-encounter powers in general.

- The general attempt to lower the barrier to entry to new players (simpler character creation, etc). However, this ends up being the source for what I consider one of 4e's biggest weaknesses (its homogeneity).

- I *think* I like the pervasive "level / 2" and the "core mechanic", expression of "Attack vs. Defense" as DCs (e.g. "Charisma vs. Fortitude"). I think. Still debating that.


Main dislikes from 4e:

- Trying to make all classes equal by making them all alike.

- 1st level characters breathing acid and teleporting at will; I'm a low-magic-world kind of DM. In fact, 4e seems to have a general built-in assumption of a high-power, high-magic campaign setting; 3.5 and previous didn't seem to dictate such things as strongly, it seems to me.

- An over-emphasis on damage, rather than creativity and manipulation, in combat (e.g. non-combat Rituals).
 

Bladesinger_Boy

First Post
I think UncleSquirrel did a great job so I'll just tack on stuff from there

[D]Main likes from 4e:

- Greater numbers of HP, especially at 1st level - gives a higher-precision granularity for players to be able to be wounded without being killed.

- Ability score purchase system (pg. 17, Method 2).

- At-will cantrips.

- More stuff for fighter types to do in combat.

- The idea of per-encounter powers in general.

- The general attempt to lower the barrier to entry to new players (simpler character creation, etc). However, this ends up being the source for what I consider one of 4e's biggest weaknesses (its homogeneity).

- I *think* I like the pervasive "level / 2" and the "core mechanic", expression of "Attack vs. Defense" as DCs (e.g. "Charisma vs. Fortitude"). I think. Still debating that.


Main dislikes from 4e:

- Trying to make all classes equal by making them all alike.

- 1st level characters breathing acid and teleporting at will; I'm a low-magic-world kind of DM. In fact, 4e seems to have a general built-in assumption of a high-power, high-magic campaign setting; 3.5 and previous didn't seem to dictate such things as strongly, it seems to me.

- An over-emphasis on damage, rather than creativity and manipulation, in combat (e.g. non-combat Rituals).[/D]

The HP are both larger at 1st level to prevent easy death, and yet also consistent (which helps fairness) and smaller as PCs improve. This relates to the mechanics for healing surges and everyone being able to heal themselves. The intended mechanics for power usage in 3.5 suggested that, in later battles as resources includnig HP are consumed, PCs might not enter combat at full HP. 4E lowers the overall HP total slightly for the precident of expecting PCs to enter combat always at full HP. I think it's a smart move.

Yeah, point-buy rocks. I also find that adjusting point-buy totals is a great to change the power level of different NPCs or cohort to PC power ratios.

At-will Cantrips rock. When 3.5 came up with reserve feats, same thing. Weaker at-will power, rather than slapping the mage on the hand for casting too many magic missiles for the day.

The power moderation is great because power creep really was, IMO, the worst aspect of 3.5. Unilateralness is great; homogeneaity is not. As per a recent post of mine, I like how save work: a set per level boost, but also additional class bonuses. A retrofit to 3.5 might work like this.

I like the increased tempo and speed, even rounds seems pound-for-pound weaker. There should be some but not too many available choices. 3.5 seems to have too few choices at low level and too many choices at high level, with all the possible spell choices and item to buy or craft and using every standard and swift action possible. This also makes small bonuses more valuable over time, so looking for combat advantage or other positive circumstances in combat is more worthwhile.

I like the increased focus on drama and action points. PCs should be able to make fun, intriguing choices and eschalation builds tension, not save-or-die effects.

4th Ed feats just seem really pointless to me. Maybe it's a step in the right direction towards choices and not power creep, but it feels boring.

4thEd philosophies might be key in finding new solution for 3.5 epic problems. I mean, the 3.5 game brakes down around level 30 just like the 4E game, but that could be boosted a bit... 33, 35, maybe 36 or 37, not likely 40. There's just no way to powerscale everything still work at that point.

I like the distinct made between in-combat spells and effects versus out-of-combat effects. Healing, fireballs, and webs are not used the same as 1 hour/lvl buff spells, breathing underwater, even flying. I feel 3.5 is bloated with too many spells, but at least they are mostly in the same book (spell compendium).

You guys have probably noticed too that at-will, encounter, and daily powers fit well into the online, real-time RPG idea of cooldown times on powers (think WoW). I don't mean that in a bad way; it might be really useful to note these cross-platform similarities.
 

CuRoi

First Post
"Unilateralness is great; homogeneaity is not."

Love that : ) Completely sume up my problem with the system.

But to get back on topic, I did like the fact that they were trying to streamline things and balance things out between classes.

I like - condensing some skills (really who needs something like Use Rope as a separate skill and how many times do I need to say "yes, survival includes use rope, or yes, profession-sailor includes use rope...")

I liked the direction they went with saves - but they dropped the ball and didn't go far enough. It's like they were on the cusp of a real evolution in the DnD game mechanics and couldn't finish off the sacred cow.
 

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