What do you like or don't like in sci-fi rpg

[WayneLigon]

I think Clark's point is simply that technology can become so advanced that its workings are beyond the comprehension of an average person. At that point it might as well be "magic."

I think, too, his point could be a reminder that science can do anything that 'magic' can, once it advances to a certain point. It might have originated as a reminder to SF writers that science really has no limits, or an admonishment to lazy or just plain bad fantasy writers if they claimed 'science is limited, while fantasy can do anything at all'.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

what the hell is that supposed to mean? They are fundamentally different processes, unless you are talking about a system of "magic" that is repeatable, explicable, testable, and teachable.

So, are you arguing that magic should be defined as random (non-repeatable), inexplicable (even to the practitioners of it), unverifiable, and unteachable?

That is interesting, but I don't think most magic systems in RPGs, literary fiction or even in real world mysticism work that way. Even modern day "psychics" like Sylvia Brown say their "powers" come from "God," or that they hear voices from the "spirit world."

Because you, a common person, can understand concepts like "God" and the "spirit world" doesn't change Sylvia from a psychic into a scientist does it?

Why?

On the other side of the coin, we could talk about all the herbal concoctions that natives have used for years to treat illnesses, calling them "magic potions." But later, scientist come along and discover that those plants have certain chemicals in them that really can help specific illnesses.

Again, I think the point is, if the average person doesn't understand the workings, it might as well be magic. Native people of South America didn't know why coca leaves seemed to boost energy and help with alertness. To them it was a magical plant. Today scientists know why that happens, so it isn't magic anymore, its science. That goes for peyote too. To the native Americans, it was a magical plant that could transport them to the spirit world (astral travel?). To scientists, it is a plant with mescaline in it.

Another example, a Haitian witch doctor that creates zombies with a potion probably thinks the potion is “magical.” However, scientists can analyze the potion’s ingredients and discover the chemicals that induce temporary comas.

Note that the witch doctor and the Native American shaman both perceive themselves as a “magic users” in much the same way that a scientist sees himself as a “science user.” The witch doctor might not know about the chemical compounds and how they react with the brain, but he knows the general effect of the mixture and how to use it to control those who know less about it than he does.
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[Bloodstone Press]

I think, too, his point could be a reminder that science can do anything that 'magic' can, once it advances to a certain point.

I agree. When I first heard that observation, that's what I took it to mean.

To get back to the discussion:

1) If you play sci-fi rpg, what do you especially like in your sci-fi adventures?, but also what you don't like and would like to see changed.

2) If you much prefer Heroic-fantasy games, and don't want to play in a sci-fi rpg, what you especially don't like in a sci-fi universe?

3) Whether you play or don't play in sci-fi rpg, what would be a very cool feature to absolutely have in a sci-fi campaign?

1. I've only played a few sci-fi games. Basically, I don't want the hard sci-fi. Don't bog the game down with lessons in physics.

2. Its hard to say what I dislike about sci-fi, if anything at all. Perhaps too many clichés.

3. Aliens. space travel. tech. strange weapons. weird societies.

I think some of the most interesting sci-fi examines the long term effects of certain social or economic or technological trends of our own world.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

There is a very important point which is brought up in one of Raymond E. Feist's books: There is no such thing as magic.

In the books, yes, there are people who can throw bolts of lightning and open gates to other worlds. They just know things about the world that most people don't. Anyone could become a mage, if they were taught the right secrets. There is knowledge, and skill; there are also tools, as some secrets are difficult to apply without applying others first. There is no magic.

 

[s/LaSH]

To pay lip service to the thread topic: I've seen a few SF RPGs. Theme would be what I'd like to see: a firm handle on what you do. Fiction, gameplay examples, sample adventures or seeds - good things. They don't have to be hard and fast rules, but there should be a handle there. Consider Star Wars, which is Cool. What do you do? Well, it's not one thing, but I think we can all agree on what Star Wars is, and it isn't what Traveller is. If that helps illustrate my point.

On the topic of Clarke's Law:

'Huzzah, Raiminster! Have you got those scrolls of fireball yet? We're heading out to the Troll Fens tomorrow.'
'Yeah, gimme a minute. Oh, and tell the cleric to stock up on protection spells.'
'Already done. He's checking in with the gods now to assess our chances, see if there's anything we're overlooking. He'll memorise our buffs before we set out.'

As we can see in this example, magic is awe-inspiring and mysterious, an uncertain art filled with temerity and danger.

Or maybe I'm engaging in deliberate hyperbole to make a point. Point is, maybe they don't know quite how magic works, but they're certainly treating it like the phonograph player in the remote tribal village. And sure, maybe a tribal shaman can curse those who displease him to death with a harsh glare. (Modern science explains the success of this technique as psychosomatic on the part of the victim.) But that's no different from pointing a gun at him, is it? A gun is technological. A curse is magical. And it has exactly the same effect: you respect the guy pointing it at you.

Anyway, isn't magic just a primitive science that managed to get something right? Look at the word 'mage'. The Magi were a sub-nation of the Persian Empire, known as priests and astrologers. They were, therefore, amongst the first astronomers. Subsequent magicians include alchemists, whose principles evolved into chemistry. At its heart, magic is an attempt to do stuff and understand it. And as it progresses, you discover how it works, and put it together creating a scientific framework. If you can't understand it, you can't use it for specific tasks, and there's no point in using it.

Or at least, so I believe.

 

[milotha]

I think that many science fiction rpg games suffer from the lack of module support. There are many GMs who can't seem to see beyond a small subset of the types of adventures possible. I think sci fi can also suffes from the "you are stuck on the ship" phenomenon. Away missions are always more exciting. Also, people are so specialized in sci-fi adventures. It's hard to get adventuring parties that can have adventures together. Party: the nethacker and the street gang figher. Nethacker :sits and tries to solve adventure on computer. Streetgang fighter :goes and beats someone up to solve the adventure. GM: I seem to be running two solo campaigns. There seemed to be less group play, and more specialized niches.

Since this thread seems to have gotten completely off topic I thought I would post some definitions from dictionary.com.

mag·ic
n.
The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.

The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.

A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).

adj.
Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton).

Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.

sci·ence
n.

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.

Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.

An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.

Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

su·per·nat·u·ral
adj.
Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
Of or relating to a deity.
Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
Of or relating to the miraculous.

 

[Ferrix]

On topic:

I like sci-fi games where there aren't a huge chunk of supernatural style powers. Again it often puts it into a have and have-not set up, although this can be remedied with a few good players (being as I've played in a Star Wars d20 game which turned out really good although we did have a jedi or two in our group).

I like sci-fi games that are gritty-ish, more like anime feel to them (cowboy bebop in particular).

I like Babylon 5, and I think it makes for a better game world than Star Trek, it's closer to home (i think).

I second the mecha call. Those are fun games.

I like sci-fi that doesn't try to combine every freakin' sci-fi story that's been told.

I like Dune, but don't know if it would translate well into a game.

Unlimited FTL travel can put a damper on things, the whole wormhole/jumpgate thing seems a bit easier to put my head around.

Farscape d20 looks like a game I want to play in.

I think that about covers it.

Off Topic:

If you think science is getting at the truth of the way the world works, I'll have myself a personal laugh and maybe someone else will. Just because you can describe how it seems to work and put that to use, doesn't mean you possess anything beyond a description. Science is just another language-system aimed at describing in a particular manner the way in which the world appears to function, and then people put those descriptions to work. Huzzah. Magic from a magic-users point of view does the same thing that technology does from a technology-users point of view.

Now that I've hopefully riled up a group of people to come at this with a vengeance, I shall depart with a laugh at myself.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, dictionary definitions in a debate like this are worth about as much salt as you get on your McDonald's french-fries.

 

[scourger]

Just don't make it "D&D in space." Killing a monster and taking it's treasure is just as boring in a sci-fi game as in a fantasy game. I played in a Star Wars game that was ruined that way. True, I wanted to be a Jedi. After all, what's the point of that game if it isn't about Jedi? I think it would have been a better experience if we been all Jedi. At least we would have had a common goal and would not have been mired in the accumulation of more and more stuff or just trying to hold on to what little we had. Conversely, a game with no Jedi or Force Powers also would have unified the group (as in "The Scoundrels Strike Back" or "Return of the Nobles").

So, that is the one thing I would love to see in a sci-fi game: a unifying thread of commonality. A reason for all these people to be together (sort of like all being explorers on the ship in Star Trek). The DragonStar game has a good adventure in that theme--"Raw Recruits." The bonus of DragonStar is that it works with the basic D&D 3rd edition game. It adds concepts rather replacing them.

This all begs the question, "Why are you doing this?" You said you have 5 players; 2 are interested in playing and 1 is not. It sounds like you will have 4 players for this new game at most. Why risk it? I've made that mistake, too. Better to run games all your players (friends?) enjoy. An alternative would be to introduce some sci-fi elements into your existing game to see how it goes. There is a free DragonStar adventure on the publisher's web site that details a starship crash on a planet that can be technoligically backward (i.e. a standard D&D world). With that kind of scenario, you could introduce sci-fi elements and see if your players like it without a lot of work on your part that may be ultimately unsatisfying if they don't want to play that kind of game. Anyway, check out "Don't Count Your Eggs" at this link:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/dsdownloads.html

 

[Ferrix]

scourger I think said what I was thinking... if you're going to run a game, make sure there is a common thread running throughout it (i think this generally goes for most games, sci-fi or fantasy) that will give characters a reason to get involved. that and ask what your players would like to see in a sci-fi game.

 

[d4]

An alternative would be to introduce some sci-fi elements into your existing game to see how it goes. There is a free DragonStar adventure on the publisher's web site that details a starship crash on a planet that can be technoligically backward (i.e. a standard D&D world). With that kind of scenario, you could introduce sci-fi elements and see if your players like it without a lot of work on your part that may be ultimately unsatisfying if they don't want to play that kind of game.

i don't know if that would actually work the way you intend it, though...

for example, i really like sci-fi gaming, but i don't like mixing genres like that. if i was playing in a traditional D&D game and the GM starting adding sci-fi elements like that, i would react very negatively. the GM might then assume that i don't like sci-fi gaming, which is very far from the truth. i just don't like sci-fi elements in a fantasy game.