What Do You Mean By "Fun" In Your RPG?

When someone says a game is "fun," you probably don’t really know what they mean, and maybe they don’t, either. Until you recognize that what's fun for you isn't necessarily fun for every game player, you cannot be a good GM.

When someone says a game is "fun," you probably don’t really know what they mean, and maybe they don’t, either. Until you recognize that what's fun for you isn't necessarily fun for every game player, you cannot be a good GM.


It’s obvious that what’s fun to a serious Chess player is not the same as what’s fun to a serious D&Der. What’s fun for an Apples to Apples player is very different from fun for a Diplomacy or Britannia player.

Some people have identified different kinds of fun or enjoyment in games, and the most well-known of these is “8 Kinds of Fun” by Marc LeBlanc.


  • Sensation/Game as sense-pleasure
  • Fantasy/Game as make-believe
  • Narrative/Game as unfolding story
  • Challenge/Game as obstacle course
  • Fellowship/Game as social framework
  • Discovery/Game as uncharted territory
  • Expression/Game as soap box
  • Submission/Game as mindless pastime

You can see that some of these are in some RPGs and not in others, but most RPG rules permit most of these kinds of fun if the GM tries to provide it. When you're planning a campaign (or designing an RPG ruleset, or writing an RPG setting) ask yourself which kinds of fun your target audience likes, and try to incorporate them into your work. For example, Discovery is obvious as many RPGs have a considerable exploration segment. RPGs usually offer Fellowship well, by their co-operative nature. Campaigns that are games (where you can fail) and not playgrounds (where there is no failure) are often Challenging Obstacle Courses. Some campaigns are big Puzzles, with lots of puzzles in each adventure.

I might prefer to call narrative Story because to me narrative (an account of what happens) is always in a game, but not always a good story. Some campaigns emphasize stories and some don't. Sometimes a GM imposes a story on the game, other GMs let the players write their own story, that is, create a narrative that’s interesting and original to them.

Many campaigns encourage self-Expression, most are about Fantasy (in the sense of something outside the real world).

Submission (time-killing) is not unusual in RPGs, though less in tabletop than video. The least common of the “8 Kinds” is Sensation, because so much of an RPG takes place in the minds of the players. On the other hand, in LARPs sensation is a major aspect.

Another point of view is Nicole Lazzaro's Four Keys to Fun that create powerful emotions:


  • Hard Fun: Fiero – in the moment personal triumph over adversity (Goals, obstacles, strategies)
  • Easy Fun: Curiosity (Exploration, Fantasy, Creativity)
  • Serious Fun: Relaxation and excitement (Repetition, rhythm, collection)
  • People Fun: Amusement (Communicate, Cooperate, Compete)

While not the same as LeBlanc’s, you can see lots of crossover. I’m not sure why she chose “serious” for category 3, but I can’t immediately think of an alternative.

I’m sure we can come up with other kinds of fun that may appeal to smaller groups. For example, I like to see how a game is structured, how designers accomplish their goals. I like co-operation, but against human opposition (as in RPGs), not so much against simple programmed opposition via cards (as in tabletop co-op board and card games).

Larger groups, too: we can suppose that many video game players have fun seeing depictions of violent death (often in slow motion, with gore), which are very common in AAA video games, and which we only imagine in tabletop games. Another example, some video gamers are so wedded to graphics that they cannot enjoy a game without photo-realistic visuals.

Perhaps you can suggest more?

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Sometimes it's the first kind of thing and often it's the second kind of thing but usually it's the third kind of thing but only when it isn't the eighth kind of thing and never the seventh kind of thing and sometimes the sixth kind of thing but only when it's the fourth kind of thing.
 

I'm glad other people beat me to the punch in this, but I cannot emphasis/agree more strongly that "fun" is a specific experience that is not identical to enjoyment.

I actually get really irritated when people talk about the purpose of RPGs being fun. Why? Because it isn't, necessarily. Almost all role-playing games are about recreation, and most of them are also about enjoyment. But fun is a subcategory of enjoyment.

As a different example of what I'm talking about, take movies. Watching most movies is both recreation and enjoyment. But it is pretty rare that it is accurately termed "fun." The concept of fun requires a sort of dynamic interaction with something or someone that isn't attained through passive absorption of content like you see in a movie.

Watching some movies can be recreation but not enjoyment, or enjoyment but not recreation. Note: I'm talking about positive experiences watching movies here. Not watching a movie you hated. Sometimes the goal of watching an enjoyable movie isn't recreation, and sometimes you recreationally watch a move for a goal other than enjoyment. I'm sure people can come up with their own examples.

The same applies to RPGs, except that fun is much more common amongst them than the extremely rare concept of having fun watching a movie (it would require something like watching it with friends and joking about--something interactive).

But while fun is extremely common in RPGs, there can be positive and desirable role-playing games that are not intended to be fun (or even games).

I'm going to write up a more detailed article on this at some point, so this was just a drive-by soapboxing on it.

The reason all of this matters is that words and concepts inform our thoughts, which affect our communication, etc. We can't have a meaningful discussion about the nuts and bolts of role-playing if one person is caught in the mindset that role-playing is all about having fun, another person thinks role-playing is about enjoyment (fun optional), and a third person feels greatly edified by overcoming grueling, non-enjoyable role-playing experiences, but all of them use the word "fun", for what they like.
 

practicalm

Explorer
While not the same as LeBlanc’s, you can see lots of crossover. I’m not sure why she chose “serious” for category 3, but I can’t immediately think of an alternative.

Committed fun? For CRPGs this would be similar to grinding. You do a thing that offers some mental stimulation, but overall isn't demanding. You can just get into the zone and these lower grade mental tasks keep you busy enough to shut off other thoughts in your head For most people who like to just drive, it's sort of the same thing, I suppose.

Serious fun is more about how your fun makes a difference in the world. Did you learn a new strategy? Did the game change your emotional state or your behavior? Did you make a change to the world during your fun.
One of the classic examples is making a game out of a task to make it fun.
 

practicalm

Explorer
The purpose of knowing the 8 Kinds of Fun is to recognize that all players are all 8 Kinds... Its just that we all have them in a subconscious different order.

From this we can recognize that no two people really experience "Fun" in the same way.

This is really why all the games that say if you're having fun you're doing it right isn't exactly correct. The word "Fun" is just way too subjective to be used as a blanket statement to represent all people.

I don't play for fun. I play for the Experience of being Creative, of enjoying the Fantasy of role-playing, to enjoy the Challenge of using game mechanics and seeing how the Story evolves from everybody's participation.

Using "Fun" to try and represent all this is pure falacy.

Nicole Lazzaro has been doing hard research on the concept of fun for around 20 years so your burden of proof is pretty high. I've listened to her talks and had private conversations with her and other people about what fun is and the funny thing is all the things you are talking about are part of her exploring the concept of fun.

I play for the Experience of being Creative,
Hard Fun or Serious Fun depending on how the creative experience changes you

of enjoying the Fantasy of role-playing,
Easy Fun

to enjoy the Challenge of using game mechanics
Hard Fun

seeing how the Story evolves from everybody's participation
People Fun / Serious Fun / Hard Fun

You can also refer to Raph Koster's book Theory of Fun if you want a different perspective.
As someone who has made a number of video games, the craft of game making is very concerned with what fun is and how it applies to games (including table top games). Game designers needed language to describe what they were attempting to make in their games and processes for testing if the game is fun.
Getting fun into games is still very much an art than a science but people like Nicole do a great job in expanding the frontier of Fun.
 

Nicole Lazzaro has been doing hard research on the concept of fun for around 20 years so your burden of proof is pretty high. I've listened to her talks and had private conversations with her and other people about what fun is and the funny thing is all the things you are talking about are part of her exploring the concept of fun.

Hard Fun or Serious Fun depending on how the creative experience changes you

Easy Fun

Hard Fun

People Fun / Serious Fun / Hard Fun

You can also refer to Raph Koster's book Theory of Fun if you want a different perspective.
As someone who has made a number of video games, the craft of game making is very concerned with what fun is and how it applies to games (including table top games). Game designers needed language to describe what they were attempting to make in their games and processes for testing if the game is fun.
Getting fun into games is still very much an art than a science but people like Nicole do a great job in expanding the frontier of Fun.

I'm not sure that I really want to jump in here, because I'm not up to the commitment of participating in the typical 8 page back and forth we are accustomed to on forums, but I do want to point out that nothing you said seems to explain why the linguistic term "fun" applies to such activities--only that they are enjoyable and desirable to many people, and that games are often designed to create them. (Which I don't dispute.)

I like eating green olives out of a jar sometimes. They taste like balls of salt and vinegar. I wouldn't describe them as pleasant tasting, or delicious, or any such thing. I'd probably say that I think they "taste good" in severe moderation. I only like one at a time, and then I'm probably good for months without eating any more. So while "taste pleasantness" might be the assumed reasoning most people like food, in this case, I like the food despite the taste not being particularly pleasant. Replace "taste pleasantness" with "fun" and the olives with a recreational activity of your choice.
 
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Hussar

Legend
I'm not sure that diving into the semantic rabbit hole of fun vs enjoyment is really all that valuable. If we take the notion of "fun" at face value -as in something you like doing and want to do again - it makes things work a lot easier.

But, I think the larger point is well made. We all emphasise different aspects of "fun" and how we rank those aspects will differ from those around us and are a pretty big point of contention within a particular group. I wonder if there would be value in a sort of questionnaire for new groups to see where they rank the different points and identify possible areas of contention.
 

aramis erak

Legend
For me, when I play, fun is requisite on 3 things:
  • Making reasonably informed meaningful choices for my character.
  • A good story resulting from cumulative meaningful choices
  • Some significant element of risk being overcome

As a GM, drop the first, but add,
  • players engage with the rules in a meaningful and informed way
  • Players enjoyed session
 

thexar

Explorer
Some players just want to show up, roll some dice, and kill some monsters. They don’t pipe up when people are talking about what to do next, they don’t really role-play. I feel like that’s selling themselves short on the experience, but so be it.

I spent all day making decisions. Now - just want to beat up monsters until candy comes out. Someone else can drive.

This isn't an "all the time" mode for me. But sometimes "mindless" is what I need.
 

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