What do you think of the ECLs in the MM?

[CRGreathouse]

Many of the creatures in the MM 3.5 list LAs, allowing players the choice of playing traditionally monster races as PCs. Now that the revision's been out for long enough to get a feel for balance (hopefully!), what do you think of the ECLs? Too high, too low, about right, or uneven?

Here are the first few LA/ECLs alphabetically:

Astral deva: LA +8, ECL 20
Aranea: LA +4, ECL 7
Hound archon: LA +5, ECL 11
Trumpet archon: LA +8, ECL 20
Athach: LA +5, ECL 19
Azer: LA +4, ECL 6
Bralani: LA +5, ECL 11
Bugbear: LA +1, ECL 4
Celestial: LA +2, ECL 3**
Centaur: LA +2, ECL 6
Couatl: LA +7, ECL 16
Dretch: LA +2, ECL 4
Hezrou: LA +9, ECL 19
Succubus: LA +6, ECL 12
Vrock: LA +8, ECL 18
Sane derro: LA +2, ECL 5
Bearded devil: LA +6, ECL 12
Kyton: LA +6, ECL 14
Erinyes: LA +7, ECL 16
Doppelganger: LA +4, ECL 8
Wyrmling black dragon: LA +3, ECL 7
Very young black dragon: LA +3, ECL 10
Young black dragon: LA +3, ECL 13
Juvenile black dragon: LA +4, ECL 17
Wyrmling blue dragon: LA +4, ECL 10
Very young blue dragon: LA +4, ECL 13
Young blue dragon: LA +5, ECL 17
Wyrmling dragon: LA +5, ECL 10
Very young green dragon: LA +5, ECL 13
Young green dragon: LA +5, ECL 16
Juvenile green dragon: LA +6, ECL 20
Wyrmling red dragon: LA +4, ECL 11
Very young red dragon: LA +5, ECL 15
Young red dragon: LA +6, ECL 19
Wyrmling dragon: LA +2, ECL 5
Very young dragon: LA +3, ECL 9
Young dragon: LA +3, ECL 12
Juvenile dragon: LA +5, ECL 17
Wyrmling brass dragon: LA +2, ECL 6
Very young brass dragon: LA +3, ECL 10
Young brass dragon: LA +4, ECL 14
Juvenile brass dragon: LA +4, ECL 17
Wyrmling bronze dragon: LA +4, ECL 10
Very young bronze dragon: LA +4, ECL 13
Young bronze dragon: LA +6, ECL 18
Wyrmling copper dragon: LA +2, ECL 7
Very young copper dragon: LA +3, ECL 11
Young copper dragon: LA +4, ECL 15
Juvenile copper dragon: LA +4, ECL 18
Wyrmling gold dragon: LA +4, ECL 12
Very young gold dragon: LA +5, ECL 16
Young gold dragon: LA +6, ECL 20
Wyrmling silver dragon: LA +4, ECL 11
Very young silver dragon: LA +4, ECL 14
Young silver dragon: LA +5, ECL 18
Drider: LA +4, ECL 10
Duergar: LA +1, ECL 2*
Drow: LA +2, ECL 3*
Ettercap: LA +4, ECL 9
Ettin: LA +5, ECL 15
Fiendish: LA +2, ECL 3**
Gargoyle: LA +5, ECL 9
Djinni: LA +6, ECL 13
Janni: LA +5, ECL 11
Ghost: LA +5, ECL 6*
Fire giant: LA +4, ECL 19
Frost giant: LA +4, ECL 18
Hill giant: LA +4, ECL 16
Stone giant: LA +4, ECL 18
Stone giant elder: LA +6, ECL 20
Gnoll: LA +1, ECL 3
Svirfneblin: LA +3, ECL 4*
Goblin: LA +0, ECL 1*
Grimlock: LA +2, ECL 4
Half-celestial: LA +4, ECL 5**
Half-dragon: LA +3, ECL 4**
Half-fiend: LA +4, ECL 5**
Harpy: LA +3, ECL 10
Hobgoblin: LA +1, ECL 2*
Zelekhut: LA +7, ECL 15
Kobold: LA +0, ECL 1*
Krenshar: LA +2, ECL 4
Lamia: LA +4, ECL 13
Lammasu: LA +5, ECL 12
Lich: LA +4, ECL 15***
Lillend: LA +6, ECL 13
Lizardfolk: LA +1, ECL 3
Locathah: LA +1, ECL 3
--lycanthropes ignored--

* With 1 class level
** Applied to an LA +0 race, with 1 class level
*** With 11 class levels

 

[gfunk]

We have played numerous high ECL PCs in our current campaign. Generally, they are overpowered at lower levels (1-6), slightly more powerful at mid levles (7-11), and underpowered but more versatile at higher levels.

However, with good Outsiders, the threat of Blasphemy and Unholy Blight are quite extreme.

 

[CRGreathouse]

We have played numerous high ECL PCs in our current campaign. Generally, they are overpowered at lower levels (1-6), slightly more powerful at mid levles (7-11), and underpowered but more versatile at higher levels.

However, with good Outsiders, the threat of Blasphemy and Unholy Blight are quite extreme.

I was wondering more about specific creatures -- are any too good, or overpriced? For example, the lich (CR +2, LA +4) and vampire (CR +2, LA +8) are an odd combination -- is the lich too cheap for players, or is the vampire too expensive? Yes, I know that CR need not equal (or even be close to) ECL, but I'd expect that the vampire's weaknesses would be especially hard on PCs, at least enough that it's not worth 4 more levels than lich.

For another example -- is the ogre too expensive at ECL 6 (vs. ECL 5), or is ECL 6 good? Maybe it's even too low... though I'd have trouble seeing that one.

 

[Endur]

A couple of these might be off by 1 or 2, but I think the balance factor of an LA really depends upon the class levels and other templates a character might have.

For instance, a Half-Fiend Troll Barbarian is very different from a Troll Wizard.

Monster hit dice tend to vary in benefits. Dragon hit dice are better than a PC level. Humanoid/Giant hit dice, on the other hand, are worse than PC levels. Monstrous Humanoid is close to being an equivalent for a PC level.

 

[Staffan]

I think the LAs are a bit on the high side - probably because monster HD are overvalued. Monster HD in and of themselves are pretty darn weak compared to class levels, so they should probably get a few of those benefits they keep charging LAs for included with their HD.

 

[Will]

In most cases I think monster HD includes (or should include) some ability score adjustments.

Animal HD work out that way, I think, if you look at lycanthropes. You 'pay' for ability scores by taking what amounts to 1/2 classes.

 

[Simulacrum]

I think the lich is very expensive, it throws you 2 levels behind every other spellcaster, nevertheless its fair compared to the immunities and other nice benefits it gives you.

A monster that has a completely overblown ECL is the doppelganger, I calculated it at LA +2. The Doppelgangers features are completely overrated and by no means worth LA +4 (thats sums up VERY hefty with the 4 racial hit die that you have to take)
The Doppelganger is a complete joke.

Also why is the Efreeti ECL 18? He has the ability to grant wishes yes, but it can use them to benefit itself so why is it ECL 18?? At least they could have put in an alternate ECL for the Efreeti without the wish ability.

 

[reapersaurus]

Too high, too low, about right, or uneven?

The vast majority are too high, in my opinion.

It's the rare case wher a classed monster will be as powerful as a classed ECL 0 race.

 

[shilsen]

The vast majority are too high, in my opinion.

It's the rare case wher a classed monster will be as powerful as a classed ECL 0 race.

I would not make a blanket comment. Whether LA is too high or not depends very greatly on the chosen class and the character level. If the chosen creature picks a class which complements its abilities, it can be just as powerful, if not more, than the ECL 0 races. For example, the LA is a little high for ogres if you're creating an ogre wizard, but it's about right for ogre fighters.

Also, if created with one class level, a race with high ECL is likely to be slightly weaker than an ECL 0 race character of the same level. But the disparity usually disappears at higher levels. An Ogre Ftr1 (ECL7) may be a little weaker than a Half-Orc Ftr7 (ECL7), esp. with regards to hit points. But by the time they are both ECL 10 or 12 or 15, the ogre's higher Con will more than compensate.

The best thing to do with races with LA is to create sample characters and decide on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Creamsteak]

With fighters, at least, I'd look at the constitution bonus and compare it to the hit dice difference when thinking of a LA. I think LA should be staggered. If a PC wants to play an Ogre Ftr1 instead of a half-orc ftr7, perhaps you should not apply the full LA.

Sure, the Ogre should have the +4 LA in the long run, but when he's level 2, it might be a little bit kinder to make his LA +3 or even +2. But when he starts to scale out of this, apply the rest of the LA at specific levels...