D&D 5E What do you think would balance Expertise on Attack Rolls?

[Slit518]

I am curious, what do you all think would balance Expertise on Attack Rolls?

1. Have it only be for the first attack in a round?
2. Have it be a Short Rest Power?
3. Have it be a Long Rest Power?
4. Have it only be usable for a certain weapon type (similar to Specialization in previous editions)?
5. It cannot be balanced and shouldn't be thought of?
6. Don't let it be available to every class, just a select few, such as the Paladin; Ranger; Warrior?
7. Have it be a Feat that needs to be purchased with certain requirements met?
8. A combination of several things?
9. I have another idea!

I am curious, what do you think?

 

[Leatherhead]

5 is the default answer. Even normal expertise messes up skill challenges.
But thinking about it further, there is a different way to make it work:
You can have Expertise, if you remove ability bonuses from attack roles.

 

[Mort]

So this is equivalent to the Devotion Paladin's channel divinity power (Us an action to add CHA to 1 weapon's attacks for 1 minute, once per long rest) - or at least pretty close as far as numbers.

It is very, very strong because with bounded accuracy the bonus to hit makes a big difference. So I too would default to #5.

Question, why the change? Are characters not hitting often enough in your campaign?

 

[Kurotowa]

I agree that it's 5 on your list. Bounded Accuracy is the name of the game. If it's a constant effect it's totally broken. If it's a conditional or limited use effect it's a lot of extra math that 5e tries to avoid and probably still too strong. Especially when it gets combined with GWM or Sharpshooter.

The better model is the Barbarian's Reckless Attack. Advantage on attack rolls has limited stacking potential, the ability comes with a clear cost for using it, and it fits both thematically and mechanically with the rest of the class. Those are the sort of questions you need to be asking when you consider handing out attack bonuses. For another example, the Archery Fighting Style's +2 bonus is meant to be a counter balance to having a -2 cover penalty for shooting into melee (never mind that many people ignore the latter part).

 

[Quartz]

Expertise on attack rolls is very powerful. Now, if you were to allow a PC to use their Proficiency Bonus instead of their stat bonus, that's a different matter, and I think would be a way of modelling an experienced fighter. So instead of rolling 1d20 + PB + Stat mod vs AC they roll 1d20 + PB + PB vs AC. But 1d20 + (2x PB) + Stat mod vs AC is very powerful. Of course, I'm a guy who thinks Expertise as is on Skill Rolls is too powerful.

If you allow my modification it should be Fighter-only and would be a good way of allowing a fighter to have high non-combat stats; I'm happy with allowing Fighters to use their PB instead of Dex when calculating AC, for instance. It would be a good fit for the Battlemaster.

Hmm... possibly the Assassin rogue too - knowledge vs power.

 

[Li Shenron]

5 is the default answer. Even normal expertise messes up skill challenges.
But thinking about it further, there is a different way to make it work:
You can have Expertise, if you remove ability bonuses from attack roles.

I agree on this except the side remark on skills. Expertise on skills was kinda needed because otherwise there is too much swinginess of the d20 compared to the bonus difference between a specialist in a skill and a character who never cared about it (in fact the only other way would have been to use d10 on ability checks but they were too married to the idea of using the same dice for all checks).

But expertise on attacks doesn't feel right. Attacks are fundamentally different from checks because of the grinding nature of combat vs the success/failure basis of skills. Averages are more important in combat while swing is more important in skills. And doubling your proficiency bonus is a very significant increase in average.

 

[Slit518]

Isn't there a hard DC cap of 30 or 35? Or am I mistaken?

What is the highest Armor Class without breaking too many rules? Full Plate +3 with Shield +3 with the Defense Fighting Style? 21 + 5 + 1? So that would equal 27. I am sure there are feats; spells; skills that can bring it higher, or other combinations.

 

[Krachek]

Permanent it’s a great power, magic weapon cap at +3, expertise could give +6.

As a ressource power it’s not very different from precision attack of the BM. Precision attack give +4.5 to 6.5 on average. It’s a key feature used with SS or GWM.

There is no balance here.
A permanent expertise weapon would be a legendary item.
using this feature less time per day will change its strength accordingly.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Super Reckless attacks:

"When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you can double your profiency bonus on melee weapon attack rolls during this turn, but your are Vulnerable to all damage until your next turn.''

 

[Charlaquin]

Isn't there a hard DC cap of 30 or 35? Or am I mistaken?

30 is the highest DC given, recommended for “nearly impossible” tasks. But there’s no real reason a DM couldn’t set a higher DC than that, if they wanted to.