What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[FireLance]

The wizard is only making a 100GP profit off the magic items. Sheesh! You know you will be finding a knight's corpse with some magic items you can sell to make some dough.

Warning: economic pedantry ahead. Proceed with caution.

Using a fairly simplistic definition of "profit", revenue minus cost, the wizard actually makes a profit of 200 gp per casting of identify.

If you don't think too much about the underlying economics and assume that the standard price guidelines in the PH correctly reflect the prevailing market conditions, the "market price" of an identify from a 10th-level wizard is 200 gp. Most 10th-level wizards make a "profit" of 100 gp. The additional 100 gp that the wizard charges above the standard "market price" is what is generally referred to as "gouging".

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Warning: economic pedantry ahead. Proceed with caution.

Using a fairly simplistic definition of "profit", revenue minus cost, the wizard actually makes a profit of 200 gp per casting of identify.

If you don't think too much about the underlying economics and assume that the standard price guidelines in the PH correctly reflect the prevailing market conditions, the "market price" of an identify from a 10th-level wizard is 200 gp. Most 10th-level wizards make a "profit" of 100 gp. The additional 100 gp that the wizard charges above the standard "market price" is what is generally referred to as "gouging".

But hey, what if he does not have any 100gp pearls and has to use 200gp pearls instead huh...???
You can't split those little puppies in half you know! And hell, for all you know about this campaign, Fred the Identifier up the road might retail at 500gp for rudimentary identifications with the price rising exponentially based upon the value of the item being identified! Mr Gouging/money-grubbing/hired/arrogant/mercenary NPC wizard might be an absolute steal at 300gp per item - I mean who wants to pay retail anyway huh!?

I mean gee whiz, can't you imagine that this might be the case here?!

[/extracts tongue from cheek]

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Lord Pendragon]

prefer a low magic world because it makes having magic items more wonderous.

In my experience, this is a fallacy. You're playing a tabletop game. Magic items are not going to feel wonderous. It doesn't matter whether they're as prevalent as in the Forgotten Realms, or as scarce as in Shadowrun. You're never going to get your players to "ooh" and "aah" by simply removing the number of magic items they receive. This is especially true if the players are experienced.

That being said, only the greatest of heroes have magic items. I don't like the magic shop on the corner and everyone has a +5 Vorpal. That doesn't mean I am stingy with items, just that I like magic to be special.

Again, I see this feeling a lot among DMs, but I've never really seen a DM successfully accomplish this "magic items are special" feeling in actual gameplay. D&D is about special powers and abilities, and a magic item is no more special than new spells for a spellcaster, or Evasion for the rogue, or Thousand Faces for a druid. The game is all about cool powers, and magic items are merely one of the ways PCs gain those powers. Reducing the magic items merely reduces the cool abilities available to the players. (Edit to add: This is not to say that magic items cannot be flavorful, or have a background that enriches the story. But rather, that in the end story enrichment is a part of everything in the game, rather than merely magic items.)

To the topic at hand, as was said upthread, all you really owe your players is a fun game. If your players trust you, you can sometimes get away with very bold campaign decisions, because they trust that you can pull it off and make it fun for them. If you are a newer DM (or new to them, in any case,) you may not have built that trust, and you may need to run them through a successful, fun standard game before they're willing to follow you into more uncharted territory.

Also, realize that a great deal of the appeal for some players, especially at high levels, which if these boards are to be believed are much more rarely played, is in getting to play with the magic items they've only read about previously. The Helm of Brilliance. The Robe of the Archmage. The Orbs of Dragonkind. Older players (and newer players who've purchased the DMG,) have read these descriptions. They may want to get the chance to play a character who has a Sphere of Annihilation instead of just reading about it.

If this is the case, then you're going to have a major obstacle in providing that fun game, because you're starting out by removing one of the strongest appeals of a higher level game. You may still be able to pull it off. But don't be surprise if the players need a little coaxing to warm to the idea. It comes back to that issue of trust.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

...D&D is about special powers and abilities, and a magic item is no more special than new spells for a spellcaster, or Evasion for the rogue, or Thousand Faces for a druid. The game is all about cool powers, and magic items are merely one of the ways PCs gain those powers...

I disagree very much with this statement.

If you have ever played in a game where magic borders upon the mythic, and where the DM does make this jump from mere statistics to something very much more, then you will see why what you said above will sound so foolish to so many ears. When magic that is so special and rare comes to dominate a world rather than being displaced amongst the ruck; when men and nations abase themselves at the feet of those very few who grasp this magic; then and only then will you see why some place such games upon the highest pedestal.

I have played in a game defined by such and it truly has shaped the way how I perceive the entire hobby. I can play in normal games and those are fine, but none of these will I cherish as much as the campaign I hold dearest. I'm sure there are others out there who could share a similar experience. It is a shame that it appears that you have not.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Storm Raven]

I disagree very much with this statement.

That's fine. That doesn't change the basic truth that lots of DMs talk about making magic in D&D wondrous and special, and virtually none of them can even come close to accomplishing this.

If you have ever played in a game where magic borders upon the mythic, and where the DM does make this jump from mere statistics to something very much more, then you will see why what you said above will sound so foolish to so many ears. When magic that is so special and rare comes to dominate a world rather than being displaced amongst the ruck; when men and nations abase themselves at the feet of those very few who grasp this magic; then and only then will you see why some place such games upon the highest pedestal.

That just seems like it would make magic irrelevant. If it is that rare, then it isn't a factor.

Really, the only way to make magic wondrous for the players is to take it out of their hands. In which case, you are playing a very different version of D&D from the norm.

 

[Odhanan]

In my experience, [rarity of magic items makes them more wondrous] is a fallacy. You're playing a tabletop game. Magic items are not going to feel wonderous. It doesn't matter whether they're as prevalent as in the Forgotten Realms, or as scarce as in Shadowrun. You're never going to get your players to "ooh" and "aah" by simply removing the number of magic items they receive. This is especially true if the players are experienced.

I agree in that the rarity of items makes little for a Sense of Wonder. The Sense of Wonder one can feel when discovering items actually doesn't depend on the rules whatsoever but on the way they are presented in the game, what they do in the game, how the DM describes them, and their significance in the game.

Anduril isn't cool or uncool because it would be a +5 Vorpal Bastard Sword or just a +1 Sword. It's a cool weapon because it's the freaking Flame of the West, because it's the blade that cut the ring off Sauron's hand, a blade that bears in its very existence the memory of the legacy of Numenor itself, the White Tree, the Last Alliance and the Kingdoms in Exile. That has nothing to do with the rules, or rarity of items (LOTR could be said to be loaded with magic items, between the Elven bread, Mithril chainmail, orc equipment with dark incantations of Isengard or Mordor, Palantiri, Swords of Gondolin and so on, so forth).

I actually experimented this first hand during the last sessions of the Seven Spires. One player actually rolled on the treasure table and ended up with a Vicious Unholy Vorpal Bastard Sword +5. By rolling the dice. I worked it out in the adventure's plot, and with the appropriate research/NPCs/Knowledges the PCs discovered this was actually the Sword of the BBEG some millennia ago, when the world was young. I described the legacy of the weapon, how so many proud knights lost their lives wielding this weapon, and the players thought this was really cool because they did not know if the legends were true or not, and thus what kind of danger there was in wielding the sword. They became even more uneasy with the sword when, after a particularly huge fight, it suddenly spoke and told a single word: "Moooore... MORE!" (To say with a low voice and very heavy breathing).

 

[FireLance]

If you have ever played in a game where magic borders upon the mythic, and where the DM does make this jump from mere statistics to something very much more, then you will see why what you said above will sound so foolish to so many ears. When magic that is so special and rare comes to dominate a world rather than being displaced amongst the ruck; when men and nations abase themselves at the feet of those very few who grasp this magic; then and only then will you see why some place such games upon the highest pedestal.

If you replace the word "magic" in the paragraph quoted above with the word "technology", you should have a rough idea of how the original paragraph sounded to me.

I recognize that some people want their magic to be mysterious, unpredictable and rare. I do not. I want it to be quantifiable, reliable and commonplace enough that my characters are able to get access to it relatively easily. I want to imagine my characters using magic, not being awed by it. Perhaps this is because I'm a tactician at heart, and I derive the most enjoyment from working out how to use magic to my character's advantage.

 

[gizmo33]

Against the spirit of whose game? The spirit of your game could be very different from the spirit of mine.

True enough - I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. The idea of "giving" magic items to PCs is weird to me, but I know people do it. If those people invented DnD, I wonder if the game would even use dice. Oh well, we're all gamers.

 

[Belen]

In the 2e MM they used to have a chart that you rolled a percentile die to see if you have magic equipment. The higher your level, the more rolls you received.

If you're really wanting to do it right, then look at the treasure tables for a 10th level encounter in the DMG and roll things up for each new character. That way, they get unique items that were rolled for.

This is what I do with all my PCs who start after the fact now.

 

[DethStryke]

I agree in that the rarity of items makes little for a Sense of Wonder. The Sense of Wonder one can feel when discovering items actually doesn't depend on the rules whatsoever but on the way they are presented in the game, what they do in the game, how the DM describes them, and their significance in the game.

Anduril isn't cool or uncool because it would be a +5 Vorpal Bastard Sword or just a +1 Sword. It's a cool weapon because it's the freaking Flame of the West, because it's the blade that cut the ring off Sauron's hand, a blade that bears in its very existence the memory of the legacy of Numenor itself, the White Tree, the Last Alliance and the Kingdoms in Exile. That has nothing to do with the rules, or rarity of items (LOTR could be said to be loaded with magic items, between the Elven bread, Mithril chainmail, orc equipment with dark incantations of Isengard or Mordor, Palantiri, Swords of Gondolin and so on, so forth).

QFT

I actually experimented this first hand during the last sessions of the Seven Spires. One player actually rolled on the treasure table and ended up with a Vicious Unholy Vorpal Bastard Sword +5. By rolling the dice. I worked it out in the adventure's plot, and with the appropriate research/NPCs/Knowledges the PCs discovered this was actually the Sword of the BBEG some millennia ago, when the world was young. I described the legacy of the weapon, how so many proud knights lost their lives wielding this weapon, and the players thought this was really cool because they did not know if the legends were true or not, and thus what kind of danger there was in wielding the sword. They became even more uneasy with the sword when, after a particularly huge fight, it suddenly spoke and told a single word: "Moooore... MORE!" (To say with a low voice and very heavy breathing).

That's teh hawesome [sic]. I would pay money to see the look on your player's faces when you did that.

That, imo, is what D&D is all about. Epic tales, wonderous adventure, and the spirit of discovery. All too often, this rules bullcrap just gets in the way of a great story. Kudos Odhanan!