What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[merelycompetent]

Price Gouging...just what is that? Its an assumption that goods you wish to buy are overpriced for the sake of making a profit....but isn't that what capitalism is about? I offer goods or services for a price, and you are free to search around for the best value.

(Snip real-world example that doesn't apply to a fantasy game - MerelyCompetent)

So when Fel the mage charges 300 gp to identify a magic item, he's spending 100 GP for the pearl, more for the scroll making, some more for the roof over his head so he can provide the service, his "secretary/servant" so he'll have time to make the scroll and not have to do his laundry, and be able to put some gold away for rainy days and retirement. And have some pocket money. Why shouldn't he get rich? Is there some law or rule written that its wrong to make money?

In addition he takes a risk if the item is cursed or explodes or summons Orcus. He also would, through his expertise, tell the players anything significant about the items....this sword was carried by LoneHawk, the mighty knight who rode through 12 rings of fire to save his wife, the Lady Serlena.

So in the end, 300 GP sounds reasonable to me, and isn't gouging at all.

I just hope that the wizard remembers that when the PCs look at the oncoming horde of bandits and yell out, "Hey! We're not guarding the Wizard! He doesn't pay us 500gp per dead corpse for stopping you from mobbing him and slitting his throat!" To which the wizard shouts, "Hey, don't blame me! The caravan master charges me 500gp per mile just for this cruddy wagon! He's the one with all the money!"

Based on what you've posted in this thread, and solely IMO: The NPC wizard, and you, are gouging the PCs. Unless the cost of Identify scrolls is similarly high (with commensurate increase for all magical services across the board - and that will *really* mess up the assumed wealth/power levels vs. encounters), it'd be cheaper for the PCs to outright buy the scrolls themselves, even at 2x listed cost, and get a PC, follower, or henchman to cast it. If it were me playing, I'd have no choice but to pay those outrageous, criminal prices since I have no gear and started broke when I'm supposedly halfway to maxing out my possible level limit in the game. Once I got enough stuff to survive the average encounter, though, that gouging little (censored) isn't getting another copper piece from me. Heck, I'll save my cash up to commision an item that does Identify twice a day, and still come out ahead. In the meantime, once I reach that survivability point, that wizard's going to have to pay my character to keep me from informing every opponent that I meet that I'm not paid to protect the wizard. Worse, if I'm not playing a good-aligned character, robbing the wizard becomes *real* attractive. And if the wizard is so powerful that he doesn't need any meat shields... then he's either a DMPC (and blessed with the DM's grace) or I'm staying the heck away from him (why would he be travelling in a caravan like this if, in metagame terms, he can slag EL10's that easily?). I'm also surprised that the LG characters haven't followed up on this interpretation of not gouging. The paladin could make a killing just charging for curing diseases or laying on hands (to say nothing of spells), and it sounds like it wouldn't be an alignment violation.

In any case, the PCs are trapped paying whatever the wizard chooses to charge, unless they want to derail the session (and potentially the campaign) by traipsing back to a town that has more reasonable prices. Unless they can do this, they're being gouged. This sort of setup can easily lead to player resentment. Resentment can lead to untimely NPC deaths. Untimely NPC deaths can lead dead PCs. Dead PCs can lead to premature campaign deaths.

 

[Keifer113]

I just hope that the wizard remembers that when the PCs look at the oncoming horde of bandits and yell out, "Hey! We're not guarding the Wizard! He doesn't pay us 500gp per dead corpse for stopping you from mobbing him and slitting his throat!" To which the wizard shouts, "Hey, don't blame me! The caravan master charges me 500gp per mile just for this cruddy wagon! He's the one with all the money!"

Based on what you've posted in this thread, and solely IMO: The NPC wizard, and you, are gouging the PCs. Unless the cost of Identify scrolls is similarly high (with commensurate increase for all magical services across the board - and that will *really* mess up the assumed wealth/power levels vs. encounters), it'd be cheaper for the PCs to outright buy the scrolls themselves, even at 2x listed cost, and get a PC, follower, or henchman to cast it. If it were me playing, I'd have no choice but to pay those outrageous, criminal prices since I have no gear and started broke when I'm supposedly halfway to maxing out my possible level limit in the game. Once I got enough stuff to survive the average encounter, though, that gouging little (censored) isn't getting another copper piece from me. Heck, I'll save my cash up to commision an item that does Identify twice a day, and still come out ahead. In the meantime, once I reach that survivability point, that wizard's going to have to pay my character to keep me from informing every opponent that I meet that I'm not paid to protect the wizard. Worse, if I'm not playing a good-aligned character, robbing the wizard becomes *real* attractive. And if the wizard is so powerful that he doesn't need any meat shields... then he's either a DMPC (and blessed with the DM's grace) or I'm staying the heck away from him (why would he be travelling in a caravan like this if, in metagame terms, he can slag EL10's that easily?). I'm also surprised that the LG characters haven't followed up on this interpretation of not gouging. The paladin could make a killing just charging for curing diseases or laying on hands (to say nothing of spells), and it sounds like it wouldn't be an alignment violation.

In any case, the PCs are trapped paying whatever the wizard chooses to charge, unless they want to derail the session (and potentially the campaign) by traipsing back to a town that has more reasonable prices. Unless they can do this, they're being gouged. This sort of setup can easily lead to player resentment. Resentment can lead to untimely NPC deaths. Untimely NPC deaths can lead dead PCs. Dead PCs can lead to premature campaign deaths.

Let me reiterate. You don't seem to understand what price gouging is. It is a belief that someone is being cheated by artificially high prices. In reality, a person, company or service is free to charge what they want, and a consumer is free to choose which provider to go with.

Telling a wizard they won't protect him if he doesn't provide them with free or cheaper services is a threat. It would be like a lifeguard telling swimmers if you don't pay me 50 bucks now, I won't come save you when start drowning. That is the mentality of a person who is...well...evil.


YOu do realize that most PC's, with appropriate magic by level wealth, are walking around with tens of thousands of gold pieces in items? That 300 gp is a pittance?

As I also pointed out, the wizard is vulnerable to attacks, same as other players. He's only 10th level. He dies he dies. But he's designed to be survivable.

I'm going to stop responding to these threads because a discussion of what price gouging is will inevitably become political.

 

[Felix]

with appropriate magic by level wealth

Yes. If the PCs have their wealth equivalents then very likely they wouldn't even need to ask the wizard to cast Identify for them, but it seems odd that you would cite appropriate wealth as a reason why the PCs should pay out the nose considering the purpose of this thread.

If they had their wealth equivalents, and yet did not have a way to identify items independant of an NPC wizard, then I might say they deserve it. But you've been saying that you didn't do exactly that!

Telling a wizard they won't protect him if he doesn't provide them with free or cheaper services is a threat.

Damn right it's a threat. If someone is trying to rob you, you can either get robbed, threaten them so they don't rob you, or you kill them. And of that killing is the only one that could possibly be Evil. The wizard is trying to skeeve them out of money by providing a service at much more than market price for reasons like he wants to have more pocket money. The service the PCs provide is martial protection, but the wizard is not compelled in any way to compensate the PCs for that risk.

So, unless he is compelled to compensate the PCs for getting in the way of raging orc barbarians, then the PCs shouldn't be compelled to pay silly fees to finance his 401k.

 

[DethStryke]

Telling a wizard they won't protect him if he doesn't provide them with free or cheaper services is a threat. It would be like a lifeguard telling swimmers if you don't pay me 50 bucks now, I won't come save you when start drowning. That is the mentality of a person who is...well...evil. (Edit: I would agree but...)
YOu do realize that most PC's, with appropriate magic by level wealth, are walking around with tens of thousands of gold pieces in items? That 300 gp is a pittance?

...at the very beginning, you made sure that we DID NOT have that level wealth and equipment. You specifically limited us to FAR less than what would make 300gp a pittance. So we have a group with no money, or maybe 1000gp between ALL of us.

Then you provide us with magic items IN the game (rather than simply letting us choose or writing them on our sheets for us at the beginning), and they require the need to be identified.. at 8+ items a go (over 20 total, as of last count in three sessions time!). The ONLY avenue available to us, due to a storyline that is "this here shipment of gold needs to make it to Point B as fast as possible", is charging us money we don't have to identify equipment we should have had already in the first place. To make up for the money, we have to give back potent magic items just to break even. In that way he is gouging EVEN MORE, as the value of the items balance out to paying him over 500gp per identify.

In the context of the real world, I would agree that he is not gouging. That's market dynamics, and based on a supply v. demand economy. He's the only supply, and the demand is present in the form of the party. No argument there.

In context of what is all happening in the game, you're gouging the hell out of your players to make up for your own mistakes / poor DMing in the first place. They are being double/triple taxed for things they had no control over in the first place.

The saddest part of it all, in my eyes, is that I could care less about magic items. They are a necessary evil, in a sense, that allows my character to meet higher level challenges. I don't want the rest of the group and future new players to be given the super short end of the stick when it comes to being "useful" in the party. A 10th level character with no better than masterwork scale armor and a wooden shield is going to get WORKED going up against anything that is supposed to be a challenge to them by ECL.

 

[BlackMoria]

Well, this thread is going off on a tangent about economics.

Back on topic. Having read all of this thread through, a number of poster have stated that all the DM owes is a fun time.

If that is the criteria, based on what I read, then I would say that the DM has failed to deliver the goods. Two of his players have weighted in and I would say based on their comments, that a 'fun' time is not shared by all.

That begs the question - what now? Is this fixable and if so, how?

 

[Keifer113]

Not an accusation: DMs interested interested in a great deal of control at the beginning of character creation are often interested in maintaining that level of control during play. I like a bit of freedom, myself. And I don't think a +1 sword or a +2 armor are really going to break or imbalance anything.


Meh. So does saying, "Everyone at 4th level gets 5,400 gp worth of equipment, with no single magic item worth more than 2,700 gp". I mean, what is that really? One +1 weapon, a +1 armor, +1 shield, and some potions. It's not going to break anything and you throw players (whose character you are about to try to kill) a friggin bone.


100 gp pearl? Valid.

Scroll making? Why is a wizard making a scroll to Identify when he won't have to spend XP to just memorize the spell? I mentioned the 125 gp price of a scroll to note that it would be much cheaper for the PCs to figure a way to cast it on their own.

Fixed cost of roof over head. Isn't he getting provided this by the caravan owner he's working for? Isn't he getting paid for being there? What cost does he have? Or is he part of the caravan administration?

Secretary/Servant. A valet costs 2 sp/ day to hire in the DMG. A 6 gp price increase would pay for one month's service. Or do the NPCs price gouge the wizard as well?

Retirement. Very forward thinking. He can have his 100gp extra cost to retire on as long as he forfeits his share of the loot we reap from adventuring. Or do you starve the PCs there as well as price gouging them?

Pocket money. 10 gp is pocket money. 100 gp is absurd. He's already making 100 gp easy when he casts Identify from a spell slot; isn't this where his pocket money comes from?

So whats the big deal about the players going 1 session without magic items?

Just to point out....a CR1 spear trap costs 1200 GP to make.

So my wizard, thinking he may someday make a keep or fortress, if he wants to put one measly spear trap in, would have to, at his going rate, do 120 identifies. I think if you look at the grandscheme of the economics of a DnD world, then making a 100 some profit on a few identifies here and there isn't a backbreaker.

BTW look at rent....for a Good stay at an Inn, its 2 GP a night. So for a month its 60 GP, and thats not including meals. So make it another 30GP, for a grand total of 90 GP.

So the question then is, how many identifies does he do a month? IMHO not alot. Adventurers and finders of magic items don't wander into town every day. So for him to stay in business, continue to do research, build up a library, correspond with other sages and magickers, and so on, and still be able to make a profit to enable him to live at a lifestyle he is accustomed to, he set his value at 300 GP. The players are free to go elswhere of course.

Let's look at some real world services. An hour with a lawyer can cost from 300-500 dollars, roughly what, 30-50 GP. A doctor's visit is 250-500 dollars, again, 25-50 dollars. A mechanic charges about 65 dollars an hour for his services, so lets say 7GP an hour. I'm paying a guy a base of 50 dollars to make some decals for me, thats 5 GP for a job that, if I had the computer and printer, would take me 20 minutes to do, if that.

The wizard has spent x number of hours making identify scrolls, since he doesn't want to walk around with identify memorized, using up a spell slot he would need for defense. Saying that he is making a 150 GP profit per use of the scroll does not take into account the amount of business he gets. Lawyers and doctors charge what they do for their expertise, and usually can count on further charges down the road to make even more money. They and mechanics know they will have a steady stream of customers.

A wizard doesn't know that. At least, if you have a realistic set of world economics. Remember, in our world, a vast amount of wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. Wizards in a DnD world would be part of that world, because they can do what others can't, and should be rewarded for the time spent learning those skills, the risks and challenges they must face.

 

[BlackMoria]

Then you provide us with magic items IN the game (rather than simply letting us choose or writing them on our sheets for us at the beginning), and they require the need to be identified.. at 8+ items a go (over 20 total, as of last count in three sessions time!). The ONLY avenue available to us, due to a storyline that is "this here shipment of gold needs to make it to Point B as fast as possible", is charging us money we don't have to identify equipment we should have had already in the first place. To make up for the money, we have to give back potent magic items just to break even. In that way he is gouging EVEN MORE, as the value of the items balance out to paying him over 500gp per identify.

Let me get this straight. Not only do are you not allowed to chose your items, but you must have them identified once the game starts?

If this is correct, I call shennigans on that. Simply NOT ON. Your character didn't suddenly pop into existance at 10th level. The reasonable assumption, even if the characters started at 10th level is that the character has some sort of implied history to account for what he did between 1st and 10th level. Any items that the 10th level character starts with should be known at game start.

No wonder the wizard is being enriched.

 

[FireLance]

A wizard doesn't know that. At least, if you have a realistic set of world economics. Remember, in our world, a vast amount of wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. Wizards in a DnD world would be part of that world, because they can do what others can't, and should be rewarded for the time spent learning those skills, the risks and challenges they must face.

Okay, here's what it boils down to: are you trying to simulate realistic economic behavior, or are you trying to give your players a fun time? Apparently, from DethStryke's post, you're not going to be able to do both with him.

At the end of the day, if you have to choose between one of the other, which is more important to you, as a DM?

 

[Voadam]

From a recent experience of mine, I was very surprised to see from several players dismay that I would not give them the so-called appropriate level of magic items/gold piece value (whatever that chart says) for 10th level characters.

I did not give them the option to purchase what items they wanted because then you end up with players tailoring their characters abilities and the items for a complete synergy. Had the characters been played from 1st level, they would have totally been upto the mercy of what I, or another DM, had given them. You could also end up with a player buying a game breaking item ( but this is rare).

I did not just give them the items I felt they would need or should have because I feel that by earning the items as part of the adventure, it would add to the character of the item, and give them some back story. "Oh yeah, I got this sword from the DM" is not as cool as "I got this sword from a bunch of trolls!"

So, in short, my question is this. I feel the players felt they were owed magic items, and felt they were owed appropriate magic items of their choosing. I also feel that they felt that the idea that PC's of that level NEED magic items to be good characters or to be able to contribute was a rule of the game. IMHO the rules are more like guidelines.

What are your thoughts?

As long as you are up front about the changes you make to the game as DM it is fine and they can then make choices based on that knowledge. It may not be to their taste and they may choose to play something else, but it is within your purview as DM to say "this is how I'm running my game."

My 16th level PC eldritch knight in a solo game is running around in a loin cloth with his spellbook tucked under his arm. He recently recovered his +3 bastard sword but before that for a long while he had to escape from bad guys and then take them on in guerilla attacks with nothing but spells and his undies.

Its D&D. Getting captured and losing stuff happens in standard magic games as well. Rust monsters and sunder are part of the game. Getting your big weapon destroyed hurts fighters more than psions. Demons with lots of SR, energy resistances, and good saves are tougher for wizards to handle than well equipped warriors. Life in D&D can be rough.

 

[merelycompetent]

Let me reiterate. You don't seem to understand what price gouging is. It is a belief that someone is being cheated by artificially high prices. In reality, a person, company or service is free to charge what they want, and a consumer is free to choose which provider to go with.

To prevent this from getting bogged down in interpretations of price gouging, what source are you referencing? Please note, the response I gave above was based solely IMO, as noted. Here is one possible source for a definition of price gouging (and the one I use): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging, 3rd paragraph regarding the Florida example. Please don't assume I don't know what price gouging is. At this point, I don't know what *your* definition of price gouging is.

Telling a wizard they won't protect him if he doesn't provide them with free or cheaper services is a threat. It would be like a lifeguard telling swimmers if you don't pay me 50 bucks now, I won't come save you when start drowning. That is the mentality of a person who is...well...evil.

Please do not misattribute my statements. I never said *anything* about him providing free or cheaper services with a threat. Besides, that's a good way for a magically-naked 10th level character to eat a lightning bolt in the back at an inopportune moment. As for not protecting him, well, if my character is getting grievously over-charged for basic services (see the percentages and starting money referenced below), especially when he's high-level but magically/financially poor, then my character's going to have to recoup the loss somehow. Billing the wizard seems like a good start - he's already getting 300gp/Identify from me, so my character knows he's got money. Furthermore, your analogy of a lifeguard does not hold up. A lifeguard is a volunteer or paid employee, specifically contracted to perform a service. Depending on the locale, this may be classified as a public service. Many lifeguards are also required to have, and maintain, certifications for the duties they perform. In any case, the lifeguard is getting paid by someone else (or is a volunteer) to provide the service. It doesn't make a good analogy with a fantasy game.

YOu do realize that most PC's, with appropriate magic by level wealth, are walking around with tens of thousands of gold pieces in items? That 300 gp is a pittance?

Not if you start the game, as previously posted, at 10th level with only 2,000 gp to spend on *mundane* equipment. That makes 300gp, around a sixth of the character's available starting finances (the ratio is even worse after buying things like food, water, mundane armor, and mundane weapons). To me, that is not a pittance - that's crippling. Now, if the PCs had started with the normal wealth range for the level, then it wouldn't be crippling. IMO, it would still be gouging (please note that I have provided a reference for my definition of gouging above). And likely my characters would regard it as such.

As an alternative, it would be simple for the NPC wizard to say, "Look, normally on a caravan like this, where I've got a monopoly, I'd charge you 400gp for that Identify. But I tell you what: If you help watch my back, I'll help watch yours, and I'll only charge 200gp. Sound fair?" Presto: Role-playing opportunity, PCs have an ally, DM has a drain tap to open on their financial resources, and there's an extra plot hook/NPC contact if it's ever needed.

As I also pointed out, the wizard is vulnerable to attacks, same as other players. He's only 10th level. He dies he dies. But he's designed to be survivable.

Then he shouldn't have a problem being charged appropriately for services rendered by the party. By the standards stated above, 500gp - especially after charging 300gp/Identify - for a 10th level character who *has* level-appropriate money is a pittance. It would also, IMO, be gouging.

I'm going to stop responding to these threads because a discussion of what price gouging is will inevitably become political.

??? Okay, you lost me there.

But, to get back on track with the thread: A DM owes the players an opportunity for a fun game. For most players and DMs this means hashing out what kind of game, style of play, house rules, starting situation, and play expectations before characters are created. For other DMs and players, this doesn't matter as much - but a wise player/DM finds this out before the game starts. As for the rules being written in stone, IMO there is only one: The DM is the final arbiter of all game-related matters. This means that the DM is also free to hand over however much or however little authority to the players that he or she sees fit (thus allowing players quite a bit or even very little say in how the game is run). The DM is under no obligation to run a game, allow the participation of characters or players, that will not be fun for him or her.

By the same token, the players are responsible for taking that opportunity for a fun game under the terms set by the DM. Players are free to discuss, and hopefully work out, any disagreements with the DM's game. Players are also free to leave the game if they so desire, or if they find the DM's terms unacceptable.

Anything further than that really needs to be worked out before the game starts. Writing these decisions down as house rules or table rules also helps. Also note that each game, and group of players/DM, is different. What works for one group/situation can fail miserably for another.