What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[DethStryke]

Let me get this straight. Not only do are you not allowed to chose your items, but you must have them identified once the game starts?

If this is correct, I call shennigans on that. Simply NOT ON. Your character didn't suddenly pop into existance at 10th level. The reasonable assumption, even if the characters started at 10th level is that the character has some sort of implied history to account for what he did between 1st and 10th level. Any items that the 10th level character starts with should be known at game start.

No wonder the wizard is being enriched.

I guess I could simply meta-game the descriptions in the DMG and not even bother with casting identify. I'd kind of pride myself on my ability to not confuse player knowledge with character knowledge, and specifically NOT meta-game this way. Seems like it's almost becoming a moral dilemma for me, which if that's not stupid, I don't know what is.

Like I’ve said about a bajillion times, I don’t care what I get to start with, whether it’s stacked for my character abilities or randomly rolled from a table, just so that it’s somewhat balanced on the whole. I thought that he was simply going to write them down for me at the start and that was that. I only offered to equip myself, actually, because I thought it was a waste of time for the DM to do all the work. *shrug* I tried to not be a lazy player. I didn't know that I was only given money for mundane items like lubricant. Not even masterwork lubricant.

 

[Storm Raven]

Let me reiterate. You don't seem to understand what price gouging is. It is a belief that someone is being cheated by artificially high prices. In reality, a person, company or service is free to charge what they want, and a consumer is free to choose which provider to go with.

And, if the seller takes advantage of a particular situation to charge higher prices, that is usually called "gouging". Sure, one can charge what the market will bear, but given that you, the DM, are in absolute control of the nature of the "market", and can prevent competitors from undercutting your pet NPC by fiat, jacking up the prices on the lame rationale you have given here is something that can fairly be called "gouging".

Telling a wizard they won't protect him if he doesn't provide them with free or cheaper services is a threat. It would be like a lifeguard telling swimmers if you don't pay me 50 bucks now, I won't come save you when start drowning. That is the mentality of a person who is...well...evil.

Or neutral. Or good and profit motivated. Why should they protect him? He is clearly no friend of theirs, and certainly not an ally. Letting him fend for himself is actually altruistic, since it teaches him the valuable lesson of self-reliance.

YOu do realize that most PC's, with appropriate magic by level wealth, are walking around with tens of thousands of gold pieces in items? That 300 gp is a pittance?

Except, of course, your PCs apparently don't have such wealth, since you said "no magic items except for the chosen few pet PCs I favor". And even though I make a good amount of money, if I went to McDonalds and they charged me $4 instead of $1 for a cheeseburger, it would still be ebough to annoy me, even though $4 is a pittance compared to my total wealth.

As I also pointed out, the wizard is vulnerable to attacks, same as other players. He's only 10th level. He dies he dies. But he's designed to be survivable.

Then he should be interested in helping out those he depends upon to help keep him alive, and not overcharge them for basic assistance.

I'm going to stop responding to these threads because a discussion of what price gouging is will inevitably become political.

Or, "my position is indefensible, so I will make up a reason to run away".

 

[Agent Oracle]

So whats the big deal about the players going 1 session without magic items?

Just to point out....a CR1 spear trap costs 1200 GP to make.

So my wizard, thinking he may someday make a keep or fortress, if he wants to put one measly spear trap in, would have to, at his going rate, do 120 identifies. I think if you look at the grandscheme of the economics of a DnD world, then making a 100 some profit on a few identifies here and there isn't a backbreaker.

Or, you know, he could do something like... let's say Make a single Magic item of his own maximum capabilities, then Charm someone into buying it at a significantly inflated price.

BTW look at rent....for a Good stay at an Inn, its 2 GP a night. So for a month its 60 GP, and thats not including meals. So make it another 30GP, for a grand total of 90 GP.

That's rent. Wizards, if I'm not mistaken, by eighth level have access to a full night's sleeping quarters that are perfectly safe from any manner of intrusion. (rope trick is your FRIEND) and furthermore, they can either prestidigitate dirt to make it taste better than the most sumptious feast.

So the question then is, how many identifies does he do a month? IMHO not alot. Adventurers and finders of magic items don't wander into town every day. So for him to stay in business, continue to do research, build up a library, correspond with other sages and magickers, and so on, and still be able to make a profit to enable him to live at a lifestyle he is accustomed to, he set his value at 300 GP. The players are free to go elswhere of course.

You'd be suprised. In a world with readily available magic, a wizard can make a quite nice comission based solely on the sale of things which, while not present in this world, are simple necessities in the other. A potion of Eagle's Splendor to woo the pretty girl at the bar? here you go. Bull's strength to get rid of this tree stump? here you go! You lost your frisbee on the roof? here's some spider climb."

Let's look at some real world services.

Right here's where you lose me. D&D != real world. Where anybody with a few cleric levels can speak with dead, Lawyer's work is half done. When a wizard can cast "Repair (which only works on constructs or mechanical objects)", mechanics are less necessary. Once paladins start Removing disease, hey, doctors go away. I seem to recall someone writing up a proposal about summoning a celestial and having him cure a plague that affected thousands by having everyone line up and letting the solar use his "remove disease at will" ability as he walked down the line.

 

[Storm Raven]

So whats the big deal about the players going 1 session without magic items?

Just to point out....a CR1 spear trap costs 1200 GP to make.

So my wizard, thinking he may someday make a keep or fortress, if he wants to put one measly spear trap in, would have to, at his going rate, do 120 identifies. I think if you look at the grandscheme of the economics of a DnD world, then making a 100 some profit on a few identifies here and there isn't a backbreaker.

BTW look at rent....for a Good stay at an Inn, its 2 GP a night. So for a month its 60 GP, and thats not including meals. So make it another 30GP, for a grand total of 90 GP.

So the question then is, how many identifies does he do a month? IMHO not alot. Adventurers and finders of magic items don't wander into town every day. So for him to stay in business, continue to do research, build up a library, correspond with other sages and magickers, and so on, and still be able to make a profit to enable him to live at a lifestyle he is accustomed to, he set his value at 300 GP. The players are free to go elswhere of course.

Of course, the wizard has much better ways of making his money without you, as the DM, going out of your way to screw the PCs. Selling a single pair of gloves of Dexterity +2 nets the Wizard 2,000 gp profit. Enough to make his precious spear trap and live like a king for months on end. Selling two scrolls of 5th level spells nets him 1,125 gp in profit, which should allow him to build that spear trap with a handful of additional coins.

Justifying this sort of thing with the "the wizard needs to make money" line is silly, and probably unnecessarily antagonistic towards the players. Wizards have much better ways to make money than gouging for casting 1st level spells.

 

[Agent Oracle]

YOu do realize that most PC's, with appropriate magic by level wealth, are walking around with tens of thousands of gold pieces in items? That 300 gp is a pittance?

When you started with two thousand, 300 gp is around 1/6th of your current wealth, in whole. Even though I knew my defender was worth more money than the entire inventory of mine and the other new players combined, there wasn't exactly a friendly Mr. Moneychanger out there in the woods to get cash to pay off the coin-happy mercenary. When I offered to start up a tab and pay him back when we reached town, the NPC did the equivalence of telling me to sit & spin.

We either overpayed him by giving him an item AND paying him regular cost, Or we overpaid him by overpaying him. Either way, it was the NPC shafting us.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Someone mentioned that the level of control I show over character creation means that I keep that kind of control during the whole game, and they prefer freedom.

Well, a GM has to keep control. It's part of it.

Otherwise, a random roll on an encounter table could result in the 3rd level group running face first into a dragon. Oops.

Control is part of the GM's job.

Nixing blatant cheating. Nixing blatant powermongering designed to tweak a PC above the others and out of "reality."

If you GM Ravenloft or another low magic setting, a +1 sword or +2 shield can be major.

A GM owes his players competant even handed control of a campaign, while also allowing them to have fun and interact with the world.

 

[merelycompetent]

Someone mentioned that the level of control I show over character creation means that I keep that kind of control during the whole game, and they prefer freedom.

Well, a GM has to keep control. It's part of it.


... A GM owes his players competant even handed control of a campaign, while also allowing them to have fun and interact with the world.

I agree. Add in, "and communicating both the starting limits and the style of play *before* character creation," and I completely agree.

Like many problems, it all comes down to communication.

 

[Felix]

Someone mentioned that the level of control...

It was me. And I said that in my experience, and "Not an accusation", so I don't know if I came off as a punk, but I really don't know how to qualify it any more.

Well, a GM has to keep control. It's part of it.

I agree. A GM also has to know when to let go.

 

[Felix]

So whats the big deal about the players going 1 session without magic items?

To what purpose? It makes sense that they have equipent if they as characters made it to 10th level, unless as I said before, they were robbed, captured, Raised or some other situation which would leave them destitute.

There's just no good reason to strip them of equipment if you simply plan on handing out equipment anyways. It's so easy to balance magic items because of the pricing system it's not funny, and after handing out all these items, you then have to rationalize why they didn't have any, then found 40 of them, then found only one or two per adventure after that.

I don't see the virtue.

Especially if you're looking to see how the character "balance" by starting some with nothing, and starting others with Holy Avengers and Griffon Summoning Helms. You'll only see how much butt the HA can kick while the others stand around.

Just to point out....a CR1 spear trap costs 1200 GP to make.

So my wizard, thinking he may someday make a keep or fortress, if he wants to put one measly spear trap in, would have to, at his going rate, do 120 identifies. I think if you look at the grandscheme of the economics of a DnD world, then making a 100 some profit on a few identifies here and there isn't a backbreaker.

Firstly, with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, he can make weapons and shields for the party that, yes, cost quite a bit, but will net him so much more cash he can afford more than one CR1 spear trap.

Secondly, whose side are you on? You're increasing the cost the PCs must pay for Identifies, making sure they don't have much cash at all (2000 bank roll, likely all spent on mundane equipment), and then saying you're doing it so your NPC can afford a spear trap? Throw the PCs a bone. If you want the wizard to have a spear trap, just give him a spear trap; nobody will care that he didn't get the money for it out of the pockets of the PCs. It just seems like you're penalizing the PCs for the benefit of an NPC with no other reason than you think the Wizard would do that.

Ok, but man, that wizard would not be my friend. Hey, if his alignment is Chaotic Jerk, then go ahead.

BTW look at rent....for a Good stay at an Inn, its 2 GP a night. So for a month its 60 GP, and thats not including meals. So make it another 30GP, for a grand total of 90 GP.

So the question then is, how many identifies does he do a month? IMHO not alot.

Is that all he does, cast Identify? I don't know his relationship with the caravan master, so I can't tell you how much he gets paid, or if he is invested in the caravan. Would you elaborate please?

Secondly, forget rent.

Simple House: 1000gp -- Cheaper than a Spear Trap!
Grand House: 5000gp -- The profit from enchanting one +3 equivalent weapon.
Tower: 50,000gp -- It'll take a while. How long has he been at it?

And that's disregarding, Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut, and Leomund's Secure Shelter, in all of which he can stay for free.

Adventurers and finders of magic items don't wander into town every day. So for him to stay in business, continue to do research, build up a library, correspond with other sages and magickers, and so on, and still be able to make a profit to enable him to live at a lifestyle he is accustomed to, he set his value at 300 GP. The players are free to go elswhere of course.

You deny PCs wealth, then increase NPC prices so your NPC can build a library. Not good DMing.

Let's look at some real world services.

Magic does not exist in the real world. The DMG has very nicely laid out for us the standard costs of hiring casters so that we don't have to make comparisons to doctors and lawyers.

The wizard has spent x number of hours making identify scrolls, since he doesn't want to walk around with identify memorized, using up a spell slot he would need for defense.

He's 10th level. By the time he gets around to needing 1st level slots to save his life, he's already in it past his neck.

And. Wizards can leave spell slots open to fill them with spells later on in the day. So at the end of the day he can take 15 minutes to memorize two Identify spells and cast 'em.

Saying that he is making a 150 GP profit per use of the scroll does not take into account the amount of business he gets.

175 gp. And why do you care more about the cash flow of an NPC wizard than you do about charging your PCs the equivalent of 500gp from what DethStryke said?

Lawyers and doctors charge what they do for their expertise, and usually can count on further charges down the road to make even more money. They and mechanics know they will have a steady stream of customers.

That's how the DMG came up with 200 GP. Is that price somehow "too low" that you can't possibly go by the book's recommendations?

A wizard doesn't know that. At least, if you have a realistic set of world economics.

Again, why is 200 gp too low? And making it 300 gp in coin, or 500 gp in items suddenly makes it "a realistic model of world economics"?

Remember, in our world, a vast amount of wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. Wizards in a DnD world would be part of that world, because they can do what others can't, and should be rewarded for the time spent learning those skills, the risks and challenges they must face.

Absolutely. When I play a wizard, I play them haughty, miserly, standoffish and prude. And I make sure that I take a bit of each haul and spend it purchasing books for a private library and tower somewhere. And I make sure than the other characters know that I'm the most valuable asset the party has, and should be protected at all costs... and then I back it up by slinging spells.

But that's a PC. Fel is an NPC, and as much as it might be neat for you to come up with all the cool things he does with his money, I can assure you the players don't really care that much. Especially if it's coming from their pockets.

Wizards ... should be rewarded for ... the risks and challenges they must face.

Try doing that for your players.

Without charging them 500gp to identify the stuff once they earn their reward.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

All this talk about the cr*psack wizard reminds me of a past campaign.

We needed to find an NPC source to cast Identifies for us. We wanted to go as cheap as possible. So we headed on down to the local Wizards guild and asked to talk to the greenest student in the place. We offered to buy him a scroll of Identify to add to his spellbook and pay the gold to scribe it IN his spellbook for free. In return he had to cast the spell for us whenever we arrived with a 100gp pearl and an item to drop off in his room.

He was happy to do it for the practice and to get to see some cool items.

If I was in the campaign being described here, I would create a PC wizard and charge the party a MERE 275gp per identify and pocket the loot to build my own MASTERWORK SPEARTRAP of doom...only 1500gp, and I get +1 to hit!

DS