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What does a paladin do (or should be doing)?

Yora

Legend
So we're back to the Lawful Good Holy Knight in Shining Armor with a Magic Horsie. That's what I mean about flexibility. Can you have a paladin that doesn't fit that archetype? Otherwise, the build is too rigid to need to be an independent class. You have to be able to account for different deities to be chosen and different themes to be applied. If I put the thief theme on a paladin, is it still a paladin? If not, then paladin is a build and not a class. (Note: That's only an example of one theme. Replace "thief" with any other theme that could be applied and see if it works.)
That's a very interesting point. One which I think might really help a lot to understand what kind of abilities a paladin would need.

Just knowing that there is a class called paladin in the game, with no information on what it actually does, what type of characters would be worth looking into the paladin class, other than this Roland guy?

My number ones: Qui-Gon Jin and Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars. Superhuman jumping and telekinesis are probably not appropriate for a paladin class, but everything else about them is quite close. They are an independent order of supernatural warriors, dedicated to preserve peace and order and protecting the innocent. In the context of a character class, they would all be high level characters, as a single Jedi can take on dozens of elite soldiers at once, so their powers would be on a level to which you would eventually get, but not what the class is starting out with.
What else do we have:
- A sense of premonition where they are needed.
- A supernatural strength in making other obedient.
- Shielding their bodies from the environment.

The Templars from Dragon Age. Yes, most of the time they are shown as pretty nasty people, but so is everyone else in that world. But there's nothing evil about their powers, all the bad they do they do with normal human abilities. They mostly fight against mages, but in Dragon Age there's basically no border between magic and demons and fighting demons is their main concern:
- Dispel Magic ability.
- Mental Resistance.
- Smite attack against magical beings.
- Blocking enemies spellcasting ability.
 

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Gold Roger

First Post
Supernatural defenses against fear and disease are certainly a starting point. I think the basic asumption is a strong resilience agsinst forces of corruption and Evil, which could also be expanded to resistance against effects that drain their life force in some way.

With that, paladins are able to get close to beings whose mere presence is a danger and tollerate areas of imense corruption. However, since it's a party based game, you can't really have a lot of situations in which everyone stays behind while the paladin goes on alone with his magical hazmat suit. When a fighter has his big sword and a rogue his knives, they want to get close to the beast and stab it. Also, in a currupted dungeon, the party can only go where its weakest member can survive.
If a paladin is immune to horrors and corruptions, that's nice for him, but the DM has to set up situations in which the whole party can keep going deeper. If it's too dangerous for the party to stay and fight, the paladin has few options than turn around as well and follow them outside. Sharing these resistances with allies is vital. And of course, the paladin himself would need to be the most resilient, because when he is out, the rest of the party is unprotected.

Of course, not all "corruption effects" are completely incapacitating, the fighter and rogue can still participate, but the paladin really shines in such situations.

"Stay close to the paladin and you can walk into the mouth of hell. His powers will shield you." would make one interesting starting point for a class. Yes, it invades the territory of bards and warlords, but in the case of bards, there's still enough major differences to make them add very different abilities to the party. After all, you can also have cleric and druid classes, or barbarians and fighter.

We have to grant some leeway to classes being very simmilar in their abilities effect on the game, otherwhise we don't need to look further than the core four to see classes stepping all over each others feet.

We can have multiple classes buffing. Just as we can have multiple classes fighting in melee, attacking from range, debuffing, healing, being mobile, etc. But each class has to do it differently and no class should be so good in one area so it marginalizes the others. This is why I'm not a fan of ranger and paladin spellcasting. It does things other classes can do, in exactly the same way and so weak, it's marginal when a "real" spellcaster is a around.

However, passive abilities are not fun. "I hit it with my longsword once per round while keeping up my protective shield around you" is not fun to play. A paladin certainly needs to have some active powers as well.
- Smiting is a start, but instead of "I hit it" you have the ability to "I hit it really hard" is not that much of a difference.

Smiting is an awesome ability, that's far to often mechanically bland. That's why I don't think smiting should be extra damage (at least not just extra damage), but rather take the road of weapon delivered debuffs. When a Paladin strikes an opponent, that opponent is cowed with fear, disheartened with shame or stunned by awe. With a simply swipe a Paladin shatters illusions, strips spellcasters of their protections or opens vulnerabilities in the otherwhise inpenetrabel defense of a demon or dragon. I don't feel any other class has or deserves a melee ability like that.

- Detect Evil is interesting in a narrated story, but full of complications in a game with the other players participating. From older articles, we've been told that alignment in 5th Edition will be handled slightly differently with mechanical impacts of alignment being restricted to supernatural beings. After all, you don't want to hunt a spy and the first response is to use detect evil on the whole court. Also it creates all those pesky alignment debates, that appear so obvious when applied to outsiders, but never get any agreement when it comes to mortals.

To me, keeping some kind of detect evil doesn't necessarily mean keeping that particular, rather problematic, ability. Some minor divinatory abilities that help a paladin discern friend and enemy, deception and truth, would not just be flavorful. It also helps the paladin in an area we haven't talked about yet, like every class, he should have noncombat abilities.

Not going to argue about this with you, but in this particular situation, that's probably exactly what's the case: It's foregone conclusion that 5th Edition will have a paladin class and that's probably not negotiable. So this now leaves the unfortunate tast that we have a box labled paladin that needs to be filled.
And ideally, it should be something that would be able to stand on its own legs. Something that is a good class even outside the context that there needs to be a class called paladin. And the first step to do that is to define what the word "Paladin" means and after that you get to start thinking how that can be made in an interesting set of class abilities.

I think most would agree that a class shouldn't be designed as an afterthought, ever. Yet, it's been done over and over, in corebooks and splats, and one of my greatest concerns for DDN. However, saying "They won't get it right, so they better don't even try" isn't exactly a solution. Hopefully all classes they put into the core books had sufficient playtesting and a strong foundation to stand on by the time of release.

I haven't been to direct about this, and contradicted myself in later posts, but "A warrior in armor on a horse with devive powers of good" is not enough to define paladins. Only this fluff as the whole basis of paladins is bad. But what is actually needed, and the intent behind the thread, is to expand that fluff. To define what a paladin is supposed to do. Then we can start thinking about how he does it.
That's the reason behind the title. Whe know what a paladin is, but what does he do?

I hope you don't my quote-cutting your post up, to add some commentary where I wanted to put it. I may find it imperative to see the "niche classes" (even the ones I dislike, like the warlord and warlock) in the game, but you raise some very valid concerns about their design, that I agree with.
 

Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
Setting aside the issue of what a paladin should do for a second, I'd just like to point out that "Paladin shouldn't be just a theme because it's always been a class" isn't exactly a good argument. In 1e, it essentially was a fighter theme or theme+background combo, since that's how sub-classes worked.

Mechanically, a paladin was a fighter who gained detect evil, +2 to saves, disease immunity and curing, lay on hands, and a magic circle against evil at 1st level at the cost of having to be lawful good and have minimum stats of Str 12, Int 9, Wis 13, Con 9, and Cha 17, and gained cleric casting, turn undead, a mount, and dispel magic while wielding a holy sword in exchange for restricting henchman and wealth options and costing more XP. Aside from that, he used the fighter tables, used fighter magic weapons, and was otherwise a fighter through and through. Making those abilities two themes for the fighter to take, one support-y and one smite-y (or one theme with restrictions, though that isn't a 5e thing so far), would be very AD&D indeed.

This isn't to say that I disagree with the arguments for making paladin a class or agree with arguments to make it a theme, just pointing out that the paladin "only" being a theme isn't without precedent and isn't a mark against the paladin.
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
My number ones: Qui-Gon Jin and Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars. Superhuman jumping and telekinesis are probably not appropriate for a paladin class, but everything else about them is quite close. They are an independent order of supernatural warriors, dedicated to preserve peace and order and protecting the innocent.


Ah, good analogy, even though some argue that Obi is Chaotic Good.

The Paladin can be a psycho-zealot, a pretty-boy crusader, or as Planescape put it: "a sinister agent".

Of course many more things (love me my Githyanki Anti-Paladins).
 

Abstruse

Legend
That's a very interesting point. One which I think might really help a lot to understand what kind of abilities a paladin would need.

Just knowing that there is a class called paladin in the game, with no information on what it actually does, what type of characters would be worth looking into the paladin class, other than this Roland guy?

My number ones: Qui-Gon Jin and Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars. Superhuman jumping and telekinesis are probably not appropriate for a paladin class, but everything else about them is quite close. They are an independent order of supernatural warriors, dedicated to preserve peace and order and protecting the innocent. In the context of a character class, they would all be high level characters, as a single Jedi can take on dozens of elite soldiers at once, so their powers would be on a level to which you would eventually get, but not what the class is starting out with.
What else do we have:
- A sense of premonition where they are needed.
- A supernatural strength in making other obedient.
- Shielding their bodies from the environment.

The Templars from Dragon Age. Yes, most of the time they are shown as pretty nasty people, but so is everyone else in that world. But there's nothing evil about their powers, all the bad they do they do with normal human abilities. They mostly fight against mages, but in Dragon Age there's basically no border between magic and demons and fighting demons is their main concern:
- Dispel Magic ability.
- Mental Resistance.
- Smite attack against magical beings.
- Blocking enemies spellcasting ability.
Now we're getting somewhere! What can you do to make the paladin unique yet still versatile enough to be a class? Those are two archetypes that still "feel" like a paladin but aren't the same old "holy knight in shining armor" archetype. It also has game mechanics and abilities attached that aren't just backstory and roleplaying - something that I can look at in the PHB and see is a completely different class. You've found wiggle room in the definition of what is a "paladin".

Now that we have that, we need more to add more versatility to the class and also work in the other direction, figuring out exactly what makes a paladin "feel" like a paladin as opposed to just a fighter in plate armor who has a code of ethics or a cleric that can beat the everloving tar out of stuff. If both of the above are examples of a paladin along with the holy knight, then what exactly is a paladin? What can a paladin do that defines them as a paladin?

Ah, good analogy, even though some argue that Obi is Chaotic Good.
Biggest problem with the Always Lawful Good trope for paladins IMO. How can someone be "lawful" when the government in power is evil and unjust? You must by your nature oppose that government, but doing so is breaking the law which brings order to the country/world/government. Since the Evil Overlord trope is so prevalent in high fantasy, this is something very important to keep in mind. How does a paladin oppose an evil overlord while still remaining lawful? Fact of the matter is he can't...he has to be chaotic to oppose the government.

Even if he say that "good is more important than lawful" (which is the canon rule in at least a few editions), it still brings up a valid question. Lawful characters are going to want order. Overthrowing an evil despot is going to sew chaos. There's no two ways around it - there will be a sudden power vacuum. The former ruler of the land is gone and various factions will then begin to fight to take control. This may split up the nation into smaller nations who will be going to war in order to carve out their territories. Then there's the lawlessness that will spread. If the overlord is enforcing his/her/its laws across the nation and that overlord is defeated, all the laws (both just and unjust) that had been enforced so strictly will be unenforceable. That means lawlessness. This sort of situation also, in a fantasy world, allows the chaotic and evil races to spread and grow, attacking villages and terrorizing the lawns.

And you, as a paladin, caused it. Directly. All that pain, horror, terror, war, and death. If you hadn't have interfered and removed the overlord from power, none of that would've happened. You defeated a great evil, but is the great evil you removed a bigger threat than the many smaller evils you set free?
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
And you, as a paladin, caused it. Directly. All that pain, horror, terror, war, and death. If you hadn't have interfered and removed the overlord from power, none of that would've happened. You defeated a great evil, but is the great evil you removed a bigger threat than the many smaller evils you set free?

Whoops, started an Alignment war (take or leave).
 

Abstruse

Legend
Whoops, started an Alignment war (take or leave).
Sorry, the alignment question was rhetorical. There's no right or wrong answer, just a right or wrong answer for your group's favored storytelling style. If you're doing Lord of the Rings, you go with the "evil empire destroyed, world is saved" and the paladin is fine. If you're doing Game of Thrones, you examine the repercussions and the paladin falls until he/she can atone by trying to set things right. Neither approach is right or wrong and I've used either based on the tone of my game.

I was attempting to use that old-as-the-game debate as an argument against tying the paladin's abilities to a Lawful Good alignment. If a paladin loses his/her abilities if he/she doesn't uphold a Lawful Good alignment, then you get a flamewar because those sort of questions can and will come up.
 

Yora

Legend
Biggest problem with the Always Lawful Good trope for paladins IMO. How can someone be "lawful" when the government in power is evil and unjust?
Easy: The writers finally need to make a clear statement of what alignment actually is supposed to mean.

There are dozens of different interpretation of what alignment actually is and all the time each individual writer simply uses his own idea with no regard to descriptions of alignment by other writers.

Short story: Lawful does not have anything to do with laws.
Lawful alignments represent characters who approach situations based on certain sets of rules they have defined for themselves, because they recognize that only with rules you can actually get any long term progress instead of aimlessly wandering in circles all the time.
Society needs rules, and rules that everyone should follow. But it's not up to the person sitting on the highest chair to define those rules for everyone else. Lawful Good characters don't follow local law, they follow universal rules. And when local law conflicts with the universal rules, then the choice is easy. It's a universal rule that you still pay fees and taxes even though you think it should be 10% lower to be fair. But when people start running around murdering people, they are stoped. A paladin does not care if they have a written permit from the king that they have the legal right to murder everyone they like.
But that gets us into the code of conduct thing, which I think is better reserved for a later point.

Any other idea for known characters that could to some degree be considered similar to paladins?

The Saphire Order comes to mind. With Hinjo and Lien making good example of non-generic paladins.
And of course O-CHUL! :lol:
 

Abstruse

Legend
Easy: The writers finally need to make a clear statement of what alignment actually is supposed to mean.
Woah, nipping this in the bud right now. My question was meant to be rhetorical and I don't want to start a flamewar or derail the thread with the almost 40 year old debate over alignment. I was using that sort massive decade-long argument as a point that paladins shouldn't be tied to the LG alignment.

And honestly, the paladins of Order of the Stick are better examples of how to play Lawful Good without being Lawful Stupid...except Miko, of course. She's the trope, pretty much every single other member of the Sapphire Order is the subversion.
 

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
"I could drop a Flamestrike on your head but I am going to buff myself instead, just for the RPing heck of it" does not say Paladin. I think that is obvious. Therefore a cleric who happens to be handy in melee with a good martial weapon is not a great choice.

A lesser argument is that standing around casting spells to get up righteously buffed up does not say Paladin either. I would not say such would necessarily be wrong, but it would be a lousy primary mechanic. Paladin-ness manifests directly in action.

The other obvious option is Fighter with a theme and background. Is "I have miraculous seeming abilities given to me by my deity" does not sound like a theme or background. It sounds like a class ability.

The Paladin sounds like class, perhaps a prestige class rather than a core class.

I am not seeing Paladin as a subtype of a Generic Champion as a great route either. What I find appealing about the Paladin concept is that there is a price paid, that the dedication to a greater cause is obvious in both mechanics and RPing. It is simply more difficult to imagine Chaotic or Evil oaths that do not devolve into "What color is my free gumball?" Generic Champions who are unwilling to pay a real price up front are simply pale imitations of the real thing.

I do not think it is an accident that Gygax chose "Anti-Paladin" as the Paladin's opposite -- this is a man who was not shy about tapping a big name thesaurus in his head. The Paladin is the Real McCoy and everyone knows it.
 

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