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What does a slayer fighter lose in the trade-off?

Felon

First Post
I don't have Heroes of the Fallen Lands. From reading the previous, I gather that they essentially lose little more than the ability to mark, and in exchange they effectively gain a bonus to damage comparable to a sorcerer. They continue to retain their defender AC and HP. Given that the fighter was already pretty insanely damage-heavy already, with multiple attack powers, 4[W] damage powers, close bursts, and pretty much anything else a melee striker could want for, it seems a bit much from where I'm sitting. With that Dex bonus, superior weapons, and access to weapon feats (like Weapon Focus), he should pretty handily trump the sorcerer's damage output, and I'm not sure what a barbarian has to offer in comparison. Seems like he would even overshadow a ranger in the striking department, unthinkable as that might be.

But like I said, I'm just going off sketchy details. Anyone tried this class out? What's the deal?
 

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Amy Kou'ai

First Post
Slayers don't have access to the same power structure as Fighters, so the powers that you describe are not accessible to them. Instead, they enter MBA-modifying stances and attack using MBAs.
 

Felon

First Post
They don't get at-wills or dailies, right? Do they get encounter powers? That's where the multiple attacks and close bursts come in. I believe they substitute a dialy with increasing their [w] damage, so that's their route to 4[w] comes in.

Do PP's and epic destinies still work the same for m?
 



MrMyth

First Post
They don't get at-wills or dailies, right? Do they get encounter powers? That's where the multiple attacks and close bursts come in.

Note they do get At-Will powers. Sorta.

Instead of having actual At-Will attacks, they can enter At-Will stances that modify their melee basic attacks. So instead of having a power "Cleave", they have "Cleaving Stance" that works similarly on all melee basic attacks.

Overall, they look to be fairly effective and straightforward strikers with good defenses and hp. But no marking powers, and only occasional bursts in damage from their encounter power (Power Strike) rather than the versatility to drag in multiple targets, throw out huge 4W attacks, etc.

They may have a few tricks in place of dailies, but they don't look too unbalanced thus far compared to either existing fighters or existing strikers.
 


Styracosaurus

First Post
The PHB fighter can mark, halt movement and has more options for pushing and pulling. The Slayer will get in the way and deal damage, but the slayer has very little control over his enemies otherwise.

If terrain or pinch points can provide an advantage then the PHB fighter would be more useful than a slayer. If you need raw damage, then the slayer deals higher average damage/round.
 

The PHB fighter can mark, halt movement and has more options for pushing and pulling. The Slayer will get in the way and deal damage, but the slayer has very little control over his enemies otherwise.

If terrain or pinch points can provide an advantage then the PHB fighter would be more useful than a slayer. If you need raw damage, then the slayer deals higher average damage/round.

Yeah, what he said. Once an encounter it's basically 2[W] damage, but on average is probably only 2 or 3 points more per hit (if using comparable weapons).
 

Styracosaurus

First Post
It will likely be more than two or three points of damage per hit in the damage compared between the two.

Slayer gains:
Dexterity modifier to damage, and increasing damage for this feature as well as the increasing bonus from improving the Dexterity modifier.

All attacks are basic attacks, so items and feats that modify basic attacks will give greater effect to the Slayer.

The Slayer has special damage that you can choose to apply after confirming the hit so you never waste your encounter ability on the chance that you miss with your big attack.

The Slayer's damage is applied at a steady rate rather than having a large bolus applied at one time. A PHB fighter will have a nice daily thump, but it must be applied at the right moment in order to not waste extra damage.
 

The Slayer, like the Barbarian, is a Striker with Defender hps. Unlike the Barbarian, the Slayer has no AC troubles: he's DEX-secondary, so can have a good AC with light armor, and he gets scale proficiency.

Yeah, that's a bit much in the basic abilities department, but he also gets no daily attack powers, and no choice of encounter attack powers (instead he gets Power Strike, which is on par with encounter attack powers, but you just get the one - multiple uses of it as you level). If the Slayer is a little ahead of the power curve, it's probably only by a little - an example of power inflation more than anything else. Also, while the Slayer has strong fundamentals there shouldn't be a whole lot of powergaming to do with it (aside from pimping out it's basic attacks, anyway).

Anyway, it ends up playing very much like a 1e Fighter, which, since it appears in the Red Box, is kinda the point.
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Those "attack 3 times for 1[w]+mods each time once per encounter" powers? Slayer misses out. AOEs? Slayer doesn't have them. Shift a bunch of squares and attack? Not for the slayer. Gain regeneration whenever you're blooded 1/day? Gone.

That's pretty much the trade off: you can do some really interesting and cool things with a regular fighter, you can manipulate your foes and the terrain, heal yourself and lay down crippling effects. A slayer isn't going to be good at ping-ponging foes into zones or hazardous terrain, and apart from a warlord, they're not going to have a lot of synergy with other classes either.
 

Korgoth

First Post
Yeah, I don't see how Slayers are anything but underpowered compared to standard Fighters. Compare what looks like the going build for a slayer (Melee Training / Dex, Hide Armor) with big PHB Fighter using a maul.

Several times per Encounter and/or Day, the PHB Fighter is going to be able to whip out some huge damage, with stuff that lets you get HP as if spending a healing surge, etc. Some stuff will be 3[W]. I'm just talking at Heroic tier. The Slayer? He will get to do 2[W] a few times per encounter. His basic attacks are probably just a hair better if he's in the right stance.

I suppose if you have several encounters per day, the Slayer will even out. But if you have a bunch of role playing, then a fight, then a bunch of role playing, then call it night... the PHB Fighter will excel because his nova-ness can be amazing.

Nothing wrong with the Slayer, but if you're playing in a game that allows non-Essentials material, it's definitely not a no-brainer choice for a strikey Fighter.
 


Shin Okada

Explorer
As Tony Vargas has already mentioned, Slayer Fighter is a striker, not a Defender. So we should better compare Slayer against other strikers.

And the most similar one would be Barbarian. Those 2 has the same amount of HPs, basically fight with melee attack. No multiple attack or multiple attack rolls as rangers and avengers. No special condition to bump up damage like rogue.

When comparing Slayer Fighter against Barbarian, Slayer Fighter seems to be more "fool proof". They have fixed amount of bonus damage (from dex and class specific features). Even if you don't go dex-heavy, a slayer fighter can just wear sclae armor and has at least descent AC.

On the other hand, Slayer don't have almost nothing beyond dealing damage with their melee attack. Even comparing to Barbarian (one of the simplest class amongst pre-essentials), slayer's powers are simple. They don't have much force movement nor close attacks.

In overall, I guess Slayer Fighter is well-balanced striker. Maybe a little bit weak due to the lack of versatility. A skilled player can maximize the benefits of various encounter/daily powers. But if used simply, just for dealing damage with a melee attack, slayer fighter will be steady and will work just fine.
 

mshea

First Post
Keep in mind that the Slayer gains multiple uses of its Power Strike as it levels up, up to four times at level 13. It's not just a one-time ability.

That said, I don't know how it compares to other strikers but it is probably on par with other Essentials strikers.

Essentials characters in general look lower powered than an all-out character using stuff from all books. This isn't too surprising but it means that Essentials characters will not likely be used when all options are available.
 

DonAdam

Explorer
They Slayer is only a problem when cheesed with stuff like Versatile Mastery and Twin Strike. Makes me wish the damage bonus only applied to melee basic attacks.
 

Vael

Hero
They Slayer is only a problem when cheesed with stuff like Versatile Mastery and Twin Strike. Makes me wish the damage bonus only applied to melee basic attacks.

The Slayer's DEX mod to damage applies to all weapon attacks, true, but everything else is keyed to basic attacks. A Twin Striking Slayer has no Power Strikes and gets no bonus from her stances.
 

nnms

First Post
They Slayer is only a problem when cheesed with stuff like Versatile Mastery and Twin Strike. Makes me wish the damage bonus only applied to melee basic attacks.

While I'm not a huge CharOp guy, I think there's a lot more interesting choices to use Versatile Mastery with than Twin Strike. I can see a lot of potential with Eldritch Strike given the right stats. Plus it works with stances and Power Strike.

I'm also thinking Howling Strike would be a good pick for a HE slayer that likes to charge. Similarly, Knockdown Assault is always a fun power. Virtuous Strike if you want to do radiant damage.

Twin Strike is probably the best choice for highest average damage output, but I'm not convinced it's the best choice given how it's not a basic attack so lots of your stances and power strike won't do anything.

I think the best Slayer is probably one optimized for charging.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
While I'm not a huge CharOp guy, I think there's a lot more interesting choices to use Versatile Mastery with than Twin Strike. I can see a lot of potential with Eldritch Strike given the right stats. Plus it works with stances and Power Strike.

But it's not using a Slayer's primary and secondary ability scores, and Melee Training (Cha or Con) will just reduce the Slayer's damage. Heck, even the Melee Training (Dex) will cause him to do so.

I'm also thinking Howling Strike would be a good pick for a HE slayer that likes to charge. Similarly, Knockdown Assault is always a fun power. Virtuous Strike if you want to do radiant damage.

Remember that Howling Strike and Knockdown Assault can be used in place of a an MBA, but are not MBAs themselves and would not received the MBA-enhancing stuff. HS really doesn't need it, since its beefy on its own.

VS and ES are MBAs, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that changed to the "in place of MBAs" language in the October rules update.
 

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