What does a slayer fighter lose in the trade-off?

[Pickles JG]

They are universally encounter abilities - not an at-will or daily among them.

It is also interesting that all of the Cleric Utility choices & bonus cleanse & raise are dailiy.
Of course with access to the full selection this could be changed but it does serve to differentiate the essentials classes from one another even more.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes mechanical differences that introduce class imbalance /do/ differentiate classes very effectively - those of us who decry the loss of class balance in Essentials often forget that it's for a reason. 4e paid a high price in that sense, to achieve the level and consistency of class balance it did, and it aparently didn't do a good enough job using other factors to keep classes differentiated.

 

[nnms]

Yes mechanical differences that introduce class imbalance /do/ differentiate classes very effectively - those of us who decry the loss of class balance in Essentials often forget that it's for a reason. 4e paid a high price in that sense, to achieve the level and consistency of class balance it did, and it aparently didn't do a good enough job using other factors to keep classes differentiated.

I also think that class balance is about fitting within a range of acceptably balanced characters rather than an absolute point. As it stands, all you have to do is arrange your attributes differently and pick your feats differently and you can take the same class and make a super effective character and an ineffective one.

I think the PHB3+ structurally different classes still fall into that acceptable balance range.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well, the Essentials builds should balance at a point. The point they were aiming for is said to be 4-5 encounters per day. Time will tell how close they got to the mark.

Certainly, /exact/ class balance is impossible. The problem with the imbalances introduced by Essentials is that they vary with the play style of the group an the kinds of adventures the DM wants to run. If a DM tends toward, a party actively tries to achieve, the old 1-encounter work-day, certain builds will suffer by comparison to others. If the DM goes in big for grueling 6+ encounter days, it'll be reversed. Stick to the formula, though, and it should be workable.

 

[yesnomu]

Comparing the Knight and Fighter would make sense - and the Knight would likely come out ahead...

I haven't seen a Knight in action, but I have seen good Fighters, and I highly doubt it. The Knight's defender mechanic is pretty nice, but losing the Fighter's encounter and daily powers is much too high of a price. Come and Get It in Heroic alone makes the Fighter a much better lockdown engine than the Knight--and it gets nothing at Paragon and Epic that makes up for the best powers they miss out on. I think Heroic tier is really the only place the Essentials martial classes can compete with mildly optimized characters, unfortunately.

 

[gourdcaptain]

Is it wrong that my first reaction to the Slayer was that my current Tempest Fighter I'm playing knocks it out of the water? My tempest fighter might be a bad example since it's outdamaging the two-blade ranger, though. Mostly the slayer, knight and thief just seem really boring though.

I do make an exception for the Executioner though - that is a fun class to play (and I currently am playing one). Mostly because it has flavorful (but highly conditional) at-wills, an interesting encounter power (frontloading all the damage into a single power), and a daily equivalent (poisons). Was it written by a different team than the main Essentials Martial classes or something?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Mostly the slayer, knight and thief just seem really boring though.

I think that is why you have the other fighter and rogue builds.

Mostly because it has flavorful (but highly conditional) at-wills, an interesting encounter power (frontloading all the damage into a single power), and a daily equivalent (poisons). Was it written by a different team than the main Essentials Martial classes or something?

I'd say you just probably like the Ex's flavor over the flavor of the other classes. Which is cool. I don't think the Ex does it any better, personally.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

And, frankly, I would find it repetative and boring after a while - I mean, I could have fun with it for a few sessions, but after a while, it would feel like I'm always doing the same thing again and again with little versatility. So if I were asked the OP's question of what the slayer fighter loses in trade off? I would answer "fun that is brought in through variety" BUT, that's just me and a personal flavor bias thing.

You know in reading this I realized my Dwarf fighter is actually pretty repetitive as well.


This is his attack power list:
Fighter at-will 1: Reaping Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Wicked Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Steel Serpent Strike
Fighter daily 1: Driving Attack
Fighter encounter 3: Bull Charge
Fighter daily 5: Brutal Advance

His combats tend to go, Bull Charge, Steel Serpent Strike, Reaping Strike, repeat Reaping Strike until all enemies are dead. 2 of 3 fights he does a daily power (he is played in LFR). Wicked Strike is just there in case he gets an OA or something, maybe one day they will produce a Fighter at-will that isn't gimped that works in place of an MBA (unlikely now).

That really isn't that different from the Slayer in many regards, in fact a Slayer might change attack mode more often. What makes my Fighter more interesting than the Slayer is that as he levels he gets more things to do in a fight other than just damage (and he does ok damage already).

I did try re-building him as a Slayer, and it works, he does more damage, but he looses a lot of flavor in the process.

That said the "go to" race for Slayers seems to be the Half-Orc.
18 Str 18 Dex starting for +8 damage. Racial power that is functionally an extra use of Power Strike for free.

EG Level 2 Half-Orc Slayer
Str 18 Con 12 Dex 18 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10
Feats: WE: Axes (gives a re-roll for 1's on damage afaik), Power Attack
Stances: Poised Assault, Berserker's Charge
Enc: Power Strike, Furious Assault
Utility: Who's Next
Magic Items: Braces of Mighty Striking, +1 Vicious Greataxe (if your DM doesn't give you one you will save up and buy it)

MBA: +10 vs AC Hit: 1d12+11

Berserker's Charge: +13 vs AC for 1d12+11 (PA: +11 for 1d12+14)
Poised Assault: +11 vs AC for 1d12+11 (PA: +9 for 1d12+14)

Who's Next lets you get up to +5 more damage.

Base Crit: 23+2d12 (PA 26+2d12)
Power Strike or Furious Assault Crit: 35+2d12 (PA 38+2d12)
Power Strike & Furious Assault Crit: 47+2d12 (PA 50+2d12)

Other magic items: Badge of the Berserker, Horned Helm, Boots of Adept Charging (if you have a defender to lock things done)

Just wait for that "first round crit" from the Half-Orc slayers...

 

[Styracosaurus]

For some players, having to think about the mechanics of the game bogs them down and pulls them out their state of suspended disbelief. For these type players, the Slayer is great.

It certainly won't be for everyone.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I haven't seen a Knight in action, but I have seen good Fighters, and I highly doubt it. The Knight's defender mechanic is pretty nice, but losing the Fighter's encounter and daily powers is much too high of a price.

I'm playing a Knight in at an Encounters table, the jurry's still out, but it's looking to be quite powerful.

The Fighter's at-wills and Knight's stances often do closely comparable things. Hammer Hands stance, for instance, lets you push the enemy you hit one and shift into his square. Just like Tide of Iron. Except, you don't need to be using a shield, and, since it's an MBA, you can use it with a charge or OA.

The Knight's Aura acts just like a mark against ever enemy adjacent to him, or who moves adjacent to him. The punishment for violating that psuedo-mark is an OA. That does damage on a miss. Whatever Stance you're in will also enhance it. Imagine being able to use both Tide of Iron and Reaping Strike simultaneously as your Combat Challenge Immediate Interrupt, now imagine that you can do it on every enemy's turn, not 1/round - that's what the Knight is cook'n.

So, does strict superiority with at wills and Combat Challenge make up for lack of dailies and Combat Superiority?

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. In fact, I think time may well tell us that the Knight and Slayer represent some serious power inflation compared to the Fighter builds they're technically not replacing.