Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Ah, totally correct. For some reason I thought it was a side-effect of one of his dailies.
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What does a slayer fighter lose in the trade-off?
- Thread starter Felon
- Start date
Ah, totally correct. For some reason I thought it was a side-effect of one of his dailies.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Boundless Endurance is a daily - just a daily utility power.
Are any Knight or Slayer utilities daily? Or are they all at-will or encounter?
Are any Knight or Slayer utilities daily? Or are they all at-will or encounter?
Styracosaurus
Explorer
Where the Slayer and the Fighter compare:
The Fighter AoO abilities (Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge features) would be offset by the Slayer's improved saving throws, resistance to enemy AoO, and increased damage on AoO.
The upgrades to the Slayer's Power Strike also have to be weighed in as a little better than equivalent level Fighter encounter powers. Consider that any upgrade to the Slayer Power Strike immediately upgrades 100% of his encounters attacks and applies to AoO and granted attacks from other classes.
All that taken into account, up to that point everything is equal IMO.
Where the Slayer and the Fighter contrast:
Daily powers of the Fighter might be too much for the Slayer to overcome. Fighters gain dailies that guarantee damage to adjacent enemies as an effect for the duration for the entire encounter. Automatic damage like this makes the Fighter overlap with and outshine the Slayer.
How to favor the Slayer:
1) The Slayer does not use dailies. IF you play a game where milestones are reached frequently, then the Slayer will hold his own as the Fighter cannot recharge his Dailies between big fights.
2) IF a Slayer plays alongside a class that grants MBA, the Slayer will shine. In fact, this might be the best way to use several Warlords in a fight. Mixing up Warlords and Slayers would generate excellent damage output.
3) Magic items that grant bonuses on MBA are great for the Slayer and tend to come at lower levels than Items with prized daily abilities.
4) Slayers do not rely on strategy. Strategy can be awesome, but sometimes it does not work out as planned and does not make use of the Fighters class abilities to the same extent.
Several things favor the Fighter:
1) Daily powers will dominate if the party wants to have extended rests between fights. This is common because all the other classes in the game pretty much rely on their dailies. If a Fighter can use two dailies in a fight, then the Slayer will fall behind.
2) IF a Fighter gains the ability to use an At-Will attack in place of an MBA, then it chips away at any advantage that the Slayer would have.
3) Fighter AoO already have advantages such as marking, stopping movement and having Wisdom added to attack rolls. Maybe not as good as outright improved damage on AoO (as the Slayer has), but definitely useful.
4) IF monsters avoid AoO entirely, then the Slayer will be very limited in damage output. The Fighter can generate an extra attack via his Combat Challenge more easily than relying on the Monsters to make mistakes.
5) FIghters can better move monsters around the battlefield, either over ledges or into damage zones. The Slayer does have a limited ability to do this, so it is not a complete win for the Fighter.
The Slayer is a viable class as long as the party and the DM style is built to make use of him. I don't think that the Slayer is ever better than the PHB fighter, but can be the Fighter's equal under the right circumstances.
nnms is right. The best Slayer is a charging slayer. A Slayer should be impetuous and in the middle of a melee. He is resistant to AoO and effects that slow him down and he wants enemies moving around him to generate his own MBAs.
The Slayer should not want to rest up. I wouldn't choose any Daily Utility powers for this reason. You want to be at full offense for every encounter of the day. Emphasize the milestones and ignore the urge to recharge daily powers and healing surges.
The Slayer wants to get there first and just hit something. Less thinking, more stabbing.
Think Leroy Jenkins.
The Fighter AoO abilities (Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge features) would be offset by the Slayer's improved saving throws, resistance to enemy AoO, and increased damage on AoO.
The upgrades to the Slayer's Power Strike also have to be weighed in as a little better than equivalent level Fighter encounter powers. Consider that any upgrade to the Slayer Power Strike immediately upgrades 100% of his encounters attacks and applies to AoO and granted attacks from other classes.
All that taken into account, up to that point everything is equal IMO.
Where the Slayer and the Fighter contrast:
Daily powers of the Fighter might be too much for the Slayer to overcome. Fighters gain dailies that guarantee damage to adjacent enemies as an effect for the duration for the entire encounter. Automatic damage like this makes the Fighter overlap with and outshine the Slayer.
How to favor the Slayer:
1) The Slayer does not use dailies. IF you play a game where milestones are reached frequently, then the Slayer will hold his own as the Fighter cannot recharge his Dailies between big fights.
2) IF a Slayer plays alongside a class that grants MBA, the Slayer will shine. In fact, this might be the best way to use several Warlords in a fight. Mixing up Warlords and Slayers would generate excellent damage output.
3) Magic items that grant bonuses on MBA are great for the Slayer and tend to come at lower levels than Items with prized daily abilities.
4) Slayers do not rely on strategy. Strategy can be awesome, but sometimes it does not work out as planned and does not make use of the Fighters class abilities to the same extent.
Several things favor the Fighter:
1) Daily powers will dominate if the party wants to have extended rests between fights. This is common because all the other classes in the game pretty much rely on their dailies. If a Fighter can use two dailies in a fight, then the Slayer will fall behind.
2) IF a Fighter gains the ability to use an At-Will attack in place of an MBA, then it chips away at any advantage that the Slayer would have.
3) Fighter AoO already have advantages such as marking, stopping movement and having Wisdom added to attack rolls. Maybe not as good as outright improved damage on AoO (as the Slayer has), but definitely useful.
4) IF monsters avoid AoO entirely, then the Slayer will be very limited in damage output. The Fighter can generate an extra attack via his Combat Challenge more easily than relying on the Monsters to make mistakes.
5) FIghters can better move monsters around the battlefield, either over ledges or into damage zones. The Slayer does have a limited ability to do this, so it is not a complete win for the Fighter.
The Slayer is a viable class as long as the party and the DM style is built to make use of him. I don't think that the Slayer is ever better than the PHB fighter, but can be the Fighter's equal under the right circumstances.
nnms is right. The best Slayer is a charging slayer. A Slayer should be impetuous and in the middle of a melee. He is resistant to AoO and effects that slow him down and he wants enemies moving around him to generate his own MBAs.
The Slayer should not want to rest up. I wouldn't choose any Daily Utility powers for this reason. You want to be at full offense for every encounter of the day. Emphasize the milestones and ignore the urge to recharge daily powers and healing surges.
The Slayer wants to get there first and just hit something. Less thinking, more stabbing.
Think Leroy Jenkins.
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Prestidigitalis
First Post
The 4e term is OA, not AoO. Get with the program! 
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Barbarians may not have a multiple-attack at-will power, but they have plenty of encounter and daily bursts and multis. Given the Barbarian Rampage feature, they look pretty attractive to me...
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
They are universally encounter abilities - not an at-will or daily among them.
the slayer fighter also (as best as I recall, though I could be wrong) doesn't get many "typed" damages (i.e. no fire damage, etc without a weapon that makes it so).
I *think* there is a minor change in skill selection too.. (or I could just be remembering wrong; maybe that was the knight with the diff. skill list).
And, frankly, I would find it repetative and boring after a while - I mean, I could have fun with it for a few sessions, but after a while, it would feel like I'm always doing the same thing again and again with little versatility. So if I were asked the OP's question of what the slayer fighter loses in trade off? I would answer "fun that is brought in through variety" BUT, that's just me and a personal flavor bias thing.
I *think* there is a minor change in skill selection too.. (or I could just be remembering wrong; maybe that was the knight with the diff. skill list).
And, frankly, I would find it repetative and boring after a while - I mean, I could have fun with it for a few sessions, but after a while, it would feel like I'm always doing the same thing again and again with little versatility. So if I were asked the OP's question of what the slayer fighter loses in trade off? I would answer "fun that is brought in through variety" BUT, that's just me and a personal flavor bias thing.
nnms
First Post
A gamer in my group expressed the exact same concern. I pointed out that stance + MBA + power strike = build your own encounter power. Then we he leveled up and got a new encounter power, he really started doing very different things from turn to turn.
You really only have 2 less places of distinction at level 1 (no encounter power being different than at-wills with extra damage and no distinct daily power). Unfortunately for those who like variety, this only goes up as you level. You may get another stance here and there, some bonuses here and there, but another use of power strike just isn't as cool as some of the other fighter encounter powers. Even if it's actually better in terms of dishing out damage (you only ever hit with it).
Would I play a slayer in a short mini-series, game day or organized event? Absolutely! Would I want to play one in a 10, 20 or even 30 level long campaign? Probably not.
Tony Vargas
Legend
There's not a lot of point, oddly enough, in comparing the Fighter and Slayer, since they're different roles, even if they are technically the same class (and that's really all it is, a technicality - the Slayer is more like a new class that gets to multiclass as a Fighter for free).
Comparing the Knight and Fighter would make sense - and the Knight would likely come out ahead...
You might compare the Slayer to another Striker. The closest would presumably be the Barbarian.
Comparing the Knight and Fighter would make sense - and the Knight would likely come out ahead...
You might compare the Slayer to another Striker. The closest would presumably be the Barbarian.
Walking Dad
First Post
I will wait how the controller ranger and the seeker will contrast to each other.
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