What does GNS mean?

[Turjan]

D&D in any of its incarnations is far away from being remotely 'simulationist'.

I don't think that's correct. D&D has a strong gamist aspect (let's say 40%; of course, this differs according to gaming group), because it's got a very predomininant rules set; it has a strong simulationist aspect (I'd say another 40%), because it's simulating its own, well know genre that is more or less set in stone since the 1970's (people like their elves and dwarves ); it's about 20% narrativist, because character development is usually optimized along gamist considerations, but not so often according to the logics of a story (I say it again: this points varies with gaming group). This percentages are not set in stone .

Sorting games into single groups of the GNS characterization does not make sense. On the other hand, assigning percentages succeeds pretty well in characterizing the general feel of a game.

 

[Akrasia]

Okay, okay, I hereby retract the following statement:
"D&D in any of its incarnations is far away from being remotely 'simulationist'."

What can I say, I'm not a game theorist. Or at least not this kind of game theorist!

 

[Doug McCrae]

It's important to remember that GDS is not intended to describe players. It's intended to describe different methods for determining what happens in a roleplaying game.

The tendency for parties to always face threats of appropriate CR is a gamist decision for instance. Whereas letting the world do what it it 'wills' is simulationist.

A given decision can be G, D or S (though often it is all three), but a player or GM can't be. Nonetheless people love to give themselves and others labels. They love to say 'I am X, he is Y'. Hence the misuse of GDS.

As Psion mentioned GNS is a bit different from GDS. Personally I find GDS to be a succinct and useful analysis. Even the biggest fan of the Forge would be unlikely to describe their essays as 'succinct'. That's why I find the Forge to be pretty useless - they make little to no effort to communicate their ideas well.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You don't get much more "Narrativist" than Storyteller System

Oh you think so? From the great man himself -

The so-called "Storyteller" design in White Wolf games is
emphatically not Narrativist, but it is billed as such, up to and
including encouraging subcultural snobbery against other
Simulationist play without being much removed from it.
- Ron Edwards

 

[Psion]

I think that WoD is/was (often) played narratively, though the game system really is not.

 

[UniversalMonster]

Agree with Psion in that the important part of the distinction is to recognize the different preferences in gamers (including yourself). Certainly that part is useful.

That being said- I don't trust anything about the Forge, and by the time I quit visiting I had the distinct impression that the theory was there to do two things: discourage anything but their interpretation of "narrativism", and to sell Ron's game. And their version of "narrativism" got convoluted to the point where you had to tackle a "narrative premise" such as "Is the life of a friend worth the safety of a community?" (as an example).

If you weren't tackling issues, in their world, it wasn't a story, and if it wasn't a story, then it wasn't narrativism. You had to stack this bit of crap on the unwritten but constantly hinted at idea that of the three preferences, narrativism was the most important, and that the most significant "narrativist" system possible that you could buy for only 10$ or so could only be.. what? Well, you probably guessed which one.

Anyhow, once I got past rejecting all of that and determining that for me- the most important part of gaming was the concept of the long term camapign and that nothing GNS applies to can really ever address a long term campaign type thing (which may encompass one of all three or different preferences depending on the date, session, activity or whatever- as any D&D player knows. Sometimes you're looking up how much water it takes to cross the desert. Sometimes your'e making an impassioned plea to the sultan. and sometimes you just want to kill some orcs. Or... you have to kill some orcs out of neccesity).

So I guess the point is, just keep a jaundiced and skeptical eye out for anything that comes from that direction. If you want to read something a bit more useful about roleplaying I recommend Robin's Laws.

 

[painandgreed]

I'll stick with my old conservative veiwpoint of Playability vrs. Realism thank you.

 

[Henry]

Oh you think so? From the great man himself -

SO let me get this straight - Ron Edwards considers Storyteller Simulationist??? :\

Considering the system determines how many "dots" one has in something as a test of competence or power, and is almost exclusively geared around when NOT to role dice, and considering Mind's Eye Theatre is a direct extension of its system, that's... an unusual conclusion, to me. I'm not even GOING near the "subcultural snobbery" comment, because I know several of the WW staff, and that's an out-of-character description from my perspective.

Looks like I'm off to re-read the glossary (that has obviously grown since last I visited it)...

 

[Turjan]

So I guess the point is, just keep a jaundiced and skeptical eye out for anything that comes from that direction. If you want to read something a bit more useful about roleplaying I recommend Robin's Laws.

I agree with you. GNS theory is nothing of importance per se. Assigning labels like 'good' or 'bad' to any of the points (G, N or S) is rubbish. The only use I can see is that you might be able to decide which kind of game generally suits your preferred gaming style.

That said, I truly believe that it's possible to play D&D predominantly in a narrativiste style. I don't say that this happens often or that D&D as a system encourages this type of play, but it doesn't hinder you from doing so, either. The gaming group has always the last word in this matter .

 

[Doug McCrae]

Looks like I'm off to re-read the glossary (that has obviously grown since last I visited it)...

I got the quote from this article on the Forge. To be fair Ron has probably said the exact opposite elsewhere.