• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

What does Videogamey mean to you?

Well, that, and you can say "4e is videogamey" in places where saying "If you enjoy 4e you're INSERT INSULTING TERM HERE" would get you banned.

IMHO, and IME, for most people I have met (I would say well over 95% of them), there is a qualitative and denotative difference between "I dislike something you enjoy" and "You suck".

I mean, I live in Canada, and I don't like hockey. Could you imagine how difficult my life would be if people took "I find hockey to be boring" to somehow mean "I find hockey to be boring, and therefore you're INSERT INSULTING TERM HERE because you enjoy it."

I mean, I have older kids (10 and 19) who know that some of the things they like are not things I think worthwhile, and who don't think some of the things I like are worthwhile. I am sure my parents and my partner find some of the stuff I like to be childish or worse. But, somehow, we are all able to distinguish between opinions of things we are into, and opinions about each other.

What do you think it is about the term "videogamey" that is so much more difficult?


RC
 

log in or register to remove this ad

This definition seems really weird to me. In virtually every video game, the actual rules are far more obfuscated than they are in any tabletop game.

I find the term "videogamey" to be largely meaningless because video games are a pretty varied lot. I do think it may have some limited meaning when applied to GMs (rather than systems).

When applied to a style of GMing, "videogamey" means that the GM has predesigned the "correct" path through the adventure and will not allow deviations from his predesigned scenario (or, in rare instances, scenarios). (It would be just as accurate to describe this as a "Choose Your Own Adventure novel".)

If it is applied to systems, I think my default is to think of it as an amalgam of: (a) dissociated mechanics that you manipulate because you want to manipulate the mechanics, and not because you're trying to accurately model a world; (b) a fetishization of balance usually correlated with an obsession with mechanical "builds"; and/or (c) a design aesthetic similar to either World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy.
I think what you've listed is a very good explanation of the term. Especially in regards to system design.

If you look back at all my posts, I probably have used this term only once or twice in my life, but my explanation of it was earnest. It is what I believed others users were attempting to express with when the term came into use. I saw it as stemming from emotive similarity they felt made RPGs different from simulation games and certainly not some pre-existing dictionary meaning. The word and usage are poorly defined. That is why I started this thread, with good intentions and I think it has been beneficial. If there is confusion over what others are liking or disliking, then having each individual define this in their own words can hopefully lead to more fruitful conversations in the future.

I'm not really looking to define the "correct" definition of videogamey. But perhaps now we can all converse with greater clarity when the topic of gaming preferences arises.
 

IMHO, and IME, for most people I have met (I would say well over 95% of them), there is a qualitative and denotative difference between "I dislike something you enjoy" and "You suck".
Hockey.. how interesting.
My son and I have gone to several hockey games together... the first 3 had engaging music along with engaging athletics ... and a fairly good experience... subsequently we went to a couple more games where the penalties and brawling and obnoxious fans annoyed and overwhelmed anything else, we have quit going. So we would say we dislike the violence of the game and fans who seem as much out for blood and insults as anything else.... I do attribute something to the fans of the activity because of the what I discern to be the nature of that activity.
 

Obviously, I know that people like hockey, and I don't think it is objectively bad. I simply don't find it particularly engaging. If I was to talk about why I didn't find it engaging, I would have to use words or terms that those who enjoy hockey might find disparaging.....one can hardly say "I don't like something because I associate it with all of these things I like".

(Well, one could, but one would be sarcastic, deceitful, and/or insane! :lol: )


RC
 

Well, this isn't a new discussion, of course. I think my .sig gives you an idea of my thoughts on the matter.

One thing I find interesting about this discussion is that folks tend to attack the term "videogamey" from the RPG angle, but I really don't see many folks attacking it from the video game angle. Not surprising given that this is ENworld, but still.

Let me contextualize.


My first video game was PONG. I received it in 1975, I think. To me, that is a video game. I grew up with the arcade boom of the 1980s. Video game parlors were filled with various games of skill and challenge. They were, by and large, relatively simplistic affairs with an emphasis on hand-eye coordination. As time passed, they did evolve....games began building more complex systems as the technology allowed designers to get more sophisticated (anyone remember Thayer's Quest?) Home arcade games were largely adaptions of arcade titles or games in a similar vein.

D&D, even Basic D&D, was far and away more complex and sophisticated. Back then, we could generally agree that video-games shared most elements in common. Even D&D adaptions (like the Intellivision games) were basically simplistic affairs that copied the concept, not the actual rules. But, that was in 1984. With the arrival of the Nintendo Entertainment System, we started to see much more sophisticated games come out, designed from the ground up to work at home on much longer game cycles. Instead of being based on quarter-sucking designs, we saw games that were...just that, games. NES' Mario game had, what, 64 levels?

Parallel to all this, computer games were gaining much more sophistication. Wizardry, Bards Tale and Ultima certainly evoked the mechanics of D&D...and some of their gameplay was fairly D&D-esque, if limited. Ultima IV's emphasis on non-combat ideas and exploration was pretty much spot-on. Computer games often incorporated much more sophisticated interfaces and designs, stemming from board games and, too a lesser degree, pen and paper designs. This led to a growing schism between console gamer and computer gamers. Games like The Fool's Errand (1987), Alone in the Dark (1992) and WarCraft (1994) certainly showed off the sophistication that consoles and the arcade couldn't match.

But the consoles started catching up: games like Final Fantasy (1987), Legend of Zelda (1987), Mario Kart (1992), Street Fighter II (1992) and Resident Evil (1996) all had their own depth that went beyond the classic 'twitch' style of gaming. Games were getting more and more involved and complex. While the divide between computer gamers was still there, the games themselves were rapidly converging. Over time, the only real difference was in hardware power and the user input systems.

These days, I hear folks tying computer games, video game consoles and arcade type games into one package. To me, this muddies the waters a bit. When I hear "World of Warcraft" referred to as a 'video game', it sounds incorrect to my ear. The term appears to have broadened to any game played on an electronic device. That said, I can understand if the idea is, in the most broad terms, a declaration that it's a game that limits player options due to limitations of the medium in which it's delivered. I don't happen to agree that this is necessarily unique to video games, however. Moreover, I don't often see anything more than a broad generalization in most uses, which I find inaccurate enough to be frustrating.

Mass Effect 2
Gears of War
Silent Hill 2
Pitfall
Grand Theft Auto IV
Desktop Tower Defense
Super Street Fighter
Uncharted 2
Bejeweled
Final Fantasy 12
Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box

These example titles are in some ways very similar...but in others are radically, radically different. They are less limited by technology and more limited by designer intent. Yes, a game like Mass Effect 2 doesn't let you kill your own crewmen and then jump off a balcony to your death or return to the Normandy, kill the crew and take up life as a space trader in the Terminus systems. True, you cannot improvise a bomb in Silent Hill 2 to destroy Pyramid Head and leave town or get some rope, tie it to a pole and swing across the gap through the middle of town. No question, you cannot take Tidus and join the bad guys side in FF12, choosing to avoid messy moral ambiguities. But these are practical design decisions...not unlike when the PHB says you only get a feat at level X, that a rogue can't use just any old weapon or that Dailies can only be used...well, Daily (and note only one of these is 4e-specific; the perjorative of 'videogamey' has been leveled at 3E for far longer).

The use of the term 'videogamey' has been used by some as an accusation of 'dumbing down' of D&D to gain appeal amongst the great unwashed and the Joe Sixpacks, who clearly aren't smart enough to handle D&D unless it's made appealing to them. (The relative merits of a more concise ruleset being an unaddressed argument.) Others have leveled the accusation that D&D is stealing concepts from other sources in a blatant intent to mimic those games. I would certainly argue that there's some truth to that. D&D is evolving to what people are playing (and there are a LOT of WoW players in the world). Of course, given that most MMOs, CRPGs, JRPGs and many video games in general originally co-opted D&D's mechanics, this strikes me as at least partly a case of the snake eating it's own tail.

Others have used it for a metaphor for a ruleset being bound to specific restrictions that they themselves find unreasonable. Or alternately that it signifies that D&D, as a system, has become too rigid in the service of goals like game balance and meta-game issues and less about the interactive social experience that attracted them to the game in the first place. I can see a case for this, though given how easy it is to change or remove such restrictions in gameplay, this seems an odd sticking point. It was once said that D&D couldn't be played without hit points...and then Green Ronin created Mutants and Masterminds and showed how it could. Alternatives to the Vancian magic system are almost as old as D&D itself. ICE made it's name developing alternate combat/damage systems. Games like Amber, Dread and Castle Falkenstein removed dice from the RPG entirely.

My main problem with 'videogamey' as a term is its lack of specificity. Often, a person referring to 'video games' really is referring very specifically to console or computer RPGs or MMOs and not to video games as a whole. That forces every conversation where it is used to have to be analyzed. When he said the DarkFire power was 'videogamey', what did he mean by that? Was Faerie Fire 'videogamey'? What about when I had it on a wand or could cast it 12 times a day at higher levels? It's use breaks conversations and doesn't help in understanding. YMMV.
 

Well, this isn't a new discussion, of course. I think my .sig gives you an idea of my thoughts on the matter.
If one person likes Red and what they get is a distinctly reddish-purple, then it may be appropriate for that person to say it is more blue than they prefer.

I strongly agree with you that videogames are rpg-ish. And would further suggest this is a more cut and dry way of looking at it.

But, by the very terms, you are establishing that there is a tangible distinction. RPGs are RPGs, whereas videogames are rpg-ish.
But all RPGs are not identical. And some of those RPGs will have relatively more elements which cause videogames to only be RPG-ish .

A red with a hint of purple is not by any means blue. But it may be "too bluish" for someone's personal preference of red.
A RPG with a hint of videogame characteristics is not a videogame by any means. But it may be "too videogamey" for someone's personal preference of RPG.
 

If one person likes Red and what they get is a distinctly reddish-purple, then it may be appropriate for that person to say it is more blue than they prefer.

I strongly agree with you that videogames are rpg-ish. And would further suggest this is a more cut and dry way of looking at it.

But, by the very terms, you are establishing that there is a tangible distinction. RPGs are RPGs, whereas videogames are rpg-ish.
But all RPGs are not identical. And some of those RPGs will have relatively more elements which cause videogames to only be RPG-ish .

A red with a hint of purple is not by any means blue. But it may be "too bluish" for someone's personal preference of red.
A RPG with a hint of videogame characteristics is not a videogame by any means. But it may be "too videogamey" for someone's personal preference of RPG.


And the reverse is also true....some video games are more "RPGish" than others.
 

A red with a hint of purple is not by any means blue. But it may be "too bluish" for someone's personal preference of red.
A RPG with a hint of videogame characteristics is not a videogame by any means. But it may be "too videogamey" for someone's personal preference of RPG.

And that's a perfectly valid opinion to hold. My issue is not with whether the a specific edition is or is not 'video-gamey', but rather that that often the claim of 'vidoe-gamey' is too broad and vague to communicate their actual meaning. Mass Effect 2, for example, features far less emphasis on the combat aspects of an RPG (being, in effect, a 3rd-person shoot in combat sequences, with the numbers hidden during actual play) and more on the story, NPCs and freedom to navigate social constructs. Conversely, the Final Fantasy series is very mechanical with virtually no story freedom, but deep character-building options (sometimes being far more arcane than any pen-and-paper RPG, in fact).

It doesn't help that I personally don't associate a game like WoW or Civilization as video games, though it's not an unreasonable use of the term.
 

And that's a perfectly valid opinion to hold. My issue is not with whether the a specific edition is or is not 'video-gamey', but rather that that often the claim of 'vidoe-gamey' is too broad and vague to communicate their actual meaning.
In the case where nothing else is provided, the validity of the complaint in no way makes it a contribution to a solution. At least not beyond pointing the designers in a general direction.
 

And the reverse is also true....some video games are more "RPGish" than others.
Absolutely. I believe the scope of "video games" is far wider than the scope of what is meant by "RPGs". As such it is far easier to see the differences between RPG-ish and non-RPGish video games than videogamey and non-videogamey RPGs. (or perhaps more appropriately, degrees of videogameyness. How's that for word abuse?) Though I also think you could easily narrow down to a range of video games and have a nearly identical debate about more or less RPGness in that subset.

One person's "too blue" red may be another's "too red" purple.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top