What does Videogamey mean to you?

[Budalic]

Mass Effect 2, for example, features far less emphasis on the combat aspects of an RPG (being, in effect, a 3rd-person shoot in combat sequences, with the numbers hidden during actual play) and more on the story, NPCs and freedom to navigate social constructs.

This (and this whole thread) reminds me of a certain critique of ME2 I found somewhere. The poster complained that game is bad because the charm and intimidate talents were cut. Context: points put into one of those talents could be put into one of a combat ability improving talents.

He essentialy said that cRPGs should be like tabletop RPGs, and his only idea of ttRPGs was: where you put points into things.

Now, non-combat abilities are called skills, and put in separate progression from combat-related abilities since, as far as I can tell, 3E.

I want to repeat that preception of videogames (and term "videogamey" - "like a videogame") differs in various individuals. Just like that guy thinks that ttRPGs are "things were you put points into things".

(off topic: The Charm/Intimidate ended up being leveled by being nice or threatening to people in ME2. Simple system and it works.)

 

[WizarDru]

(off topic: The Charm/Intimidate ended up being leveled by being nice or threatening to people in ME2. Simple system and it works.)

Yeah, they effectively just changed those skills to Paragon/Renegade actions and gave the choice to choose them during encounters...effectively making them a resource that you can use passively to unlock actions/results in game.

While I originally was unhappy with ME2's much sparser character options, I came to actually appreciate how they streamlined it and made very choice more meaningful.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I look through this thread, and I see post after post of people saying "I don't mean videogamey to be anything insulting or denigrating, I mean it to mean the following vaguely insulting and denigrating things".

So... how about we just use it as a sort of adjective? There are elements of video games that can add a lot to roleplaying games: after all, video games are as big a form of entertainment as movies and literature these days. Conversely they can be a source of awfulness: taking WOW raid encounter design (ie - keep wiping until you figure it out) and applying it raw to D&D (keep tpking until you win) would be a recipe for disaster.

If people would actually describe their issue (for good or ill) and then say "it's like videogame X", that has the potential to provide us with a lot of common ground in understanding how things work.

If they leave out the specific video game that they're comparing to, then the phrase has no value: it's just expressing the poster's opinion of video games. And if they leave out the actual issues, then it's worse still: it's left to the reader to decide whether the issue is a good or bad thing based on the tone of the post.

 

[BryonD]

I look through this thread, and I see post after post of people saying "I don't mean videogamey to be anything insulting or denigrating, I mean it to mean the following vaguely insulting and denigrating things".

Any statement of "Why I don't like something..." is going to be critical. If someone is going to get their feeling hurt because someone else is critical of something they like, then any critical comment can be perceived by that person as at least "vaguely insulting and denigrating".

If you are not interested in the opinions of people who don't like 4E, then ignore them. If you are then you will need to accept that they are not going to be flattering.

 

[Hussar]

That's the point though BryonD that has been brought up many times here. People don't necessarily get insulted by criticism. If a criticism is well thought out and has at least some evidence to back it up, it's pretty hard to get insulted about it. True, you can, but, I don't think most people do.

What does get people's backs up though is a vague term they know is perjorative, not simply a negative criticism. So, no, "not any critical comment can be perceived by that person as at least "vaguely insulting and denigrating" when the terms used are not vague. When you use specific language, people will respond the same.

When you use vague language, you rely on the other person to read what you're writing in the best possible light and I think that places too much emphasis on the reader and not enough responsibility on the writer. Using vague language assumes a level of common understanding that just cannot be presumed with people you don't actually know.

For me, it's not that I'm not interested in negative opinions about 4e. That's fine. But, actually TELL me something other than, "I don't like it." which is all videogamey actually says.

 

[Garthanos]

Obviously, I know that people like hockey, and I don't think it is objectively bad. I simply don't find it particularly engaging. If I was to talk about why I didn't find it engaging, I would have to use words or terms that those who enjoy hockey might find disparaging.....

RC

Note I found Hockey relatively engaging.. until it was spoiled by the people involved (insert your favorite D&D in that sentence)..
. It occurs to me at least the first two times we went it was with a Boy Scout troup. I directly associate my experience of that game with the people. I am american and "watching" baseball is like "watching paint dry" and futbol is more fun to play than football. I played both in high school. The passivity of watching is generally boring (I might have eventually decided watching hockey was like watching any sport ie doesn't impress me... fencing is tons more fun to do than watch.)

A MontyHaul-Killer-ImaginationSupressingByTheBook DM & Unimaginative - Passive players can transform any D&D into some of the worst elements of video games.

D&D plays like a videogame.... insults who? - see above

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

D&D plays like a videogame.... insults who? - see above

As I just posted in the other thread...

Nonsense. What I can't abide is someone saying:

"There's nothing insulting about saying the game is 'like WoW.' I play WoW, I enjoy WoW, and if I want that game experience I'll play WoW. But I don't want that experience in my D&D game."

Guess what? That sentence was a roundabout way of saying 4e was "like WoW," in a way that the statement is a putdown of 4e. Again, I don't care if you like 4e or not. Just be aware that when you express your dislike by drawing a comparison to something 4e isn't (a video game), you're inviting an argument.

And "Not D&D" really is the worst attack you can make. Nobody should be surprised when people who play that edition get offended or royally pissed off.

Ladies and Gentlemen, here we have Exhibit A of the kind of stuff I've been talking about for pages.

Person A: "I don't like 4Ed because its videogamey."
Person B: "Videogamey how?"
Person A: "Its like WoW. I like WoW, but I don't want it in my D&D."
Person B: "Well now you're just tickin' me off!"

The critical statement can't be abided by the person asking for clarification, lighting the fuse. Person B already knew from the first sentence that 4Ed was being criticized by comparison. Once the exact comparison became defined- a comparison to WoW- Person B had everything they needed to become indignant as if it were a personal attack and not merely a critique of the game based on someone else's gaming preferences.

Apparently, it has become impossible to criticize the game without criticizing the gamer. There is an inability or unwillingness on the parts of some people to accept a statement like "I like WoW, but I don't want it in my D&D." or my similar statement about Healing Surges & Tekken at face value. To them, the words are merely a facade to an ad hominem attack.

What purpose did asking for clarification serve? It lit the fuse, and that's it.

And, FWIW, MMMORPGs were among the many sources from which the 4Ed team drew inspiration, so one can hardly claim that those who critique the game on that basis- rejecting those elements- are being trollish.

The Escapist : The Truth About 4th Edition: Part One of Our Exclusive Interview with Wizards of the Coast

They're out there- I don't know how many or what percent of the population they are- but they're out there.

 

[Garthanos]

As I just posted in the other thread...

Not sure I get the connection I was pointing out that any instance of game play which featured players/DMs of certain negative stereotypes... could make the role playing into something very video game like... And for those players the "I hit it with my sword" is just the one button video game and 4e is the 8 button one... shrug. Somebody pretending the game is at fault seems likely in error, in any edition. Blaming the game ... can be seen as implying that must be how the other guy plays, I mean isnt that true...

 

[lutecius]

For me, it's not that I'm not interested in negative opinions about 4e. That's fine. But, actually TELL me something other than, "I don't like it." which is all videogamey actually says.

No. it says "it has things I generally associate with videogames"
Of course, not every videogame will have them and not everyone will have the same examples or definition, but if you look at threads like this one you can see commonalities and get a general idea of what most posters mean by 'videogamey'.
If you really have no clue and/or are interested in the specifics you can always ask "how so?" and most will be happy to explain.

many single-word descriptors or analogies are going to be vague on their own. Not everyone will agree on what is 'cinematic', 'streamlined', 'grim and gritty' or 'old school' (or their opposites.) that doesn't mean the terms are useless.

 

[Garthanos]

Of course, not every videogame will have them

or one in a million video-games will have anything like the feature and you just want to fly your flag with the others using the term because they are on your side of the edition war.