D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
wait what?!?! the wizard at 9th level gets 4 cantrips, 4 1st level spells 3 2nd level spells 3 3rd level spells 3 4th level spells and a 5th levels spell arcane recover and 2 subclass features for a total of 21 class features
the fighter gets fighting style, second wind, action surge extra attack, indomitable, and 2 subclass features and a bonus ASI/feat for a total of 8

in what world does a fighter have MORE?
even if we take the spells per day out and just sat 1st level spells 2nd level spells 3rd level spells 4th level spells, 5th level spell, Cantrips, arcane recovery and 2 subclass features that's 9!
In the world that you count the fighter's subclass, too.

The Battle Master subclass ability comes with, at 8th level 5 superiority dice that can be used to pick from 5 maneuvers and do extra damage. That's 5 uses, since you are counting spell slots separately. Fighters also have 3 subclass abilities at 9th level. That brings Battle Masters up to 14 compared to 21 for the wizard, 4 of which are cantrips which match fighter's attacks or something else really minor. So really 14 to 17 and 1st level spells aren't much better than cantrips.

The strength of a wizard is not in doing the roles of others, but rather in the versatility that allows it to fill the gaps left by the other classes.
 

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Undrave

Hero
NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without expending a spell slot. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.
What makes it different from the Cleric or Druid is that the Wizard doesn't have to prepare their Rituals, they just keep them in their book, meaning they basically know extra spells.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
They are NOT based on in game fiction (or no action surge, anyone coulld sneak attack, anyone could rage) so the entire argument falls apart.
I don't agree with that. They can still be based in the fiction. For example, anyone can hit a vital spot(critical hit), but rogues train to do it reliably(sneak attack) and sometimes do even better(crit+sneak attack). Fighters learn to tap deep into the inner energy that all people have and draw it forth to get an extra action(supernatural ability) that other classes can't.

The argument doesn't fall apart, but it would take a little bit of work to fit these abilities into the fiction in a way that makes sense.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
FWIW, this is how I see the break-down:

WIZARD
  1. Spellcasting
  2. Ritual Spells*
  3. Arcane Recovery
  4. ASI (x5)
  5. Arcane Tradition Feature (x5)
  6. Spell Mastery**
  7. Signature Spell***

NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without expending a spell slot. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.

** At-will 1st- AND 2nd-level spells could be counted separately.

*** Two extra 3rd-level slots IMO could be counted separately.

COUNT: Depending on how you count those options, you have 15-17 features.

FIGHTER
  1. Fighting Style
  2. Second Wind
  3. Action Surge
  4. Martial Archetype (x5)
  5. ASI (x7)
  6. Extra Attack
  7. Indomitable
COUNT: 17 features.

By my count (anyway) they are fairly even...

UNLESS...

If you want to count access to each spell level (9 in total) instead of 1 (spellcasting), then I would also at least count Extra Attack as 3 instead of 1, but either way the Wizards jump to 23-25 vs. the Fighter at 19. :)
The fighting styles need to be better, even if it's just to improve them at specific level intervals to boost fighters.
 

In the world that you count the fighter's subclass, too.
i did go back and check it's in there
The Battle Master subclass ability comes with, at 8th level 5 superiority dice that can be used to pick from 5 maneuvers and do extra damage. That's 5 uses, since you are counting spell slots separately. Fighters also have 3 subclass abilities at 9th level. That brings Battle Masters up to 14 compared to 21 for the wizard, 4 of which are cantrips which match fighter's attacks or something else really minor. So really 14 to 17 and 1st level spells aren't much better than cantrips.

The strength of a wizard is not in doing the roles of others, but rather in the versatility that allows it to fill the gaps left by the other classes.
wizards get every attack a fighter gets
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
i did go back and check it's in there
And yet you shorted them on 5 options.
wizards get every attack a fighter gets
Via a cantrip's additional damage, yes. Of course, if they miss it's 0 damage, where if a fighter misses he just keeps on attacking.

Only bladesinger(that I can think of) gets a 2nd attack, and none of them get a 3rd or 4th, so where are you getting this from.
 

And yet you shorted them on 5 options.
no i didn't go back and look at the post I counted every class feature every subclass type and every attack
I did only go to 9th level
Via a cantrip's additional damage, yes. Of course, if they miss it's 0 damage,
wait did I miss an option for a fighter to get damage on a miss?
Only bladesinger(that I can think of) gets a 2nd attack, and none of them get a 3rd or 4th, so where are you getting this from.
no one gets a 3rd by 9th when we were talking about1f1s
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
no i didn't go back and look at the post I counted every class feature every subclass type and every attack
I did only go to 9th level
"the fighter gets fighting style, second wind, action surge extra attack, indomitable, and 2 subclass features and a bonus ASI/feat for a total of 8"

Where are the 5 options allowed from Maneuvers?
wait did I miss an option for a fighter to get damage on a miss?
Fighters get multiple chances to hit, unlike wizards who miss completely with their cantrips.
no one gets a 3rd by 9th when we were talking about1f1s
Wizards do not in fact get every attack a fighter gets. One very specific subclass does, but then falls behind.
 



DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The fighting styles need to be better, even if it's just to improve them at specific level intervals to boost fighters.
I agree. ;)

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Do people consider the maneuvers displayed in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon mundane, uncanny, or magical? Is there anything there that people would consider outside the theme of a fighter, or placed only in a subclass?

Also, is there only mundane and magical, or can uncanny be a thing (not a magical action but something repeatably statistically improbable)?

Is the Green Destiny effectively a magic item, or perhaps something that only an experienced fighter can get the most use out of?
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
That's really good, but to be in the running with spells it needs to be automatic. Having to spend three style choices to get there is too much of a cost I think. Basically intermediate at like 6th and advanced at 12th or something. And maybe have a supreme level that enters at 18th.
You get them automatically at 8th, 12th, and 16th levels. ASIs (not shown on the table below are at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th as usual, but those are now under Character Levels instead of class levels.

Beginning at 2nd level, you also learn BM maneuvers, up to 4. We also altered and moved Indomitable to 4th level

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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Do people consider the maneuvers displayed in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon mundane, uncanny, or magical? Is there anything there that people would consider outside the theme of a fighter, or placed only in a subclass?

I never cared much for CTHD, myself, but in D&D terms I would consider much of the "wire-fu" in the movie as "uncanny" to "magical", certainly not mundane!!! I put it on the same level as Hercules/Xena (done more tastefully, of course!), which I consider mostly tier 4 (perhaps some tier 3?).

Also, is there only mundane and magical, or can uncanny be a thing (not a magical action but something repeatably statistically improbable)?
I believe what you term uncanny to me would be something plausible in mundane views, but insanely incredible. Something like a fighter jumping 60 feet with a running start. Maybe "Matrix" level stuff?

IRL we see people do insanely incredible things, so I can easily envision such capabilities possible in a fantasy setting without resorting to it being magic. Now, having a fighter jumping too the moon or something would most definitely be beyond that scope!

Is the Green Destiny effectively a magic item, or perhaps something that only an experienced fighter can get the most use out of?
I don't recall that, was it the sword or something in the movie?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You get them automatically at 8th, 12th, and 16th levels. ASIs (not shown on the table below are at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th as usual, but those are now under Character Levels instead of class levels.

Beginning at 2nd level, you also learn BM maneuvers, up to 4. We also altered and moved Indomitable to 4th level

View attachment 260563
That's a much better fighter class. Still lacking in exploration and social, but much better in what fighters do best.

I'm really curious, though, about why you reduced the fighters' proficiency with armor and weapons that way. That seems very reminiscent of 2e where fighters could only use a few weapons and had to hope to find good ones that they were proficient with.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
That's a much better fighter class. Still lacking in exploration and social, but much better in what fighters do best.
The revamp of Action Surge allows for some additional exploration IMO, but otherwise we wanted the fighter to focus their bonus ASI/feats on exploration and social IF the player wanted to. I could see adding a bit more, but then I would pull back on some of the combat features to balance it out (not a lot, mind you!).

I'm really curious, though, about why you reduced the fighters' proficiency with armor and weapons that way. That seems very reminiscent of 2e where fighters could only use a few weapons and had to hope to find good ones that they were proficient with.
That is because we've implemented a more robust background system, which adds armor and weapon proficiencies in many cases.

For example, a fighter with a "Militant" (e.g. soldier-type) background would have all armor and shields, an 5-6 weapons IIRC.

But yes, individual weapons are preferred by us over the broad simplified groups in 5E.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
same you seem more and more to just be picking and picking to try to 'get points' somehow

I feel the same

you didn't understand mine. I did NOT mention or even hint at real world religions... you in response named 2. I didn't make it at all about religion YOU DID.

my response is clear DON'T TURN TALK ABOUT MAGIC IN THE GAME INTO ONE ABOUT REAL WORLD BELIFE AND RELIGION... no real world religion that I know of believe you can cast magic missile or fireball.

you tried to turn a very clear statement into a religious argument.

sure there are I talk about them all the time. I think you should have both (or well 3 but not important) options on level up.

the system tells you

again it's not ME saying so it's teh system. Come and Get it wasn't... it was a martial Exploit, Green FLame Blade is it is an arcane spell

the word obviously is the problem... it's YOU making a choice and deciding we must all agree.

I see no reason that "Once per day/long rest you automatically hit with an attack" has to be supernatural at all (again it seems to be the robin hood ability

wrong, it's how the fiction handles it that matters, those lables are the fiction.

A jedi uses the force to pull a weapon from an enemy's hand
Harry Potter casts a spell disarming his opponent
Conan slams his axe down disarming his opponent

1 was the force, 1 was magic, 1 was training, same effect

I mean sure, but no one is suggesting it is... I don't understand this line at all.

but if you had 'a number of times per day equal to your prof you can make a jump and go three times your normal max' special option a fighter could take that doesn't mean they are casting jump.

he hits... he keeps hitting he doesn't miss with his shots... you said any 'auto hit' ability would be magic

yes... he doesn't miss

yes

no he isn't magic he is a protagonist.

in the narrative he doesn't miss. he doesn't have a 'chance of missing' he always gets the shaft and splits the arrow.

davy crocket and robin hood and Odysseus don't use magic... they do bigger then life things (or batman or hawkeye in more modern stories)
no magic... just a hero protagonist training and smart and able to do things amazing

most likely not... I mean if they could why would they need those props and FX?

again, we know in the real world it is staged, and tricks... but we buy into the story of the wrestlers doing these things. All I am asking is that we do the same with fighters.
davy crocket and robin hood and Odysseus don't use magic... they do bigger then life things (or batman or hawkeye in more modern stories)
no magic... just a hero protagonist training and smart and able to do things amazing

nope... I do not see EITHER as a spell. I see it as abstract mechanic vs concreate mechanic but if it isn't magic it isn't magic...

in Call of Cthulhu and some other games there is a roll you can make to rewrite the scene... it isn't magic, your character isn't rewriting the scene (ala bill and ted saying to remember the trash can) it is just the way it always has been... no magic

you asked why everyone can't do everything... because the game is set up so that there are silos of abilities. barbarians rage, not rangers or fighters. if you want to rage you multi into barbarian (or take a multi class feat or something)

that is what I am asking for, to increase the siloed abilities of the fighter.

yes like your bear trap power would be an abstraction.... it wouldn't be 'magically make a trap' it's 'you had the trap' just like if you want to rage you take a level in barbarian...

again you jump from in game to out of game at break neck speeds to try to make your points... I don't think you are doing it well.

You asked why not anyone could rage. I explained why.

yes and no I am trying to show your ideal of how D&D works isn't how D&D worked in any edition I ever played, so i don't understand why you are arguing against increasing thee silo of fighter abilities.

I am showing that we have silo of abilities in classes. They are NOT based on in game fiction (or no action surge, anyone coulld sneak attack, anyone could rage) so the entire argument falls apart.
To be fair, all of your responses indicate a strongly held narrative, 4th ed-centric point of view. Now I understand that you're a fan, and that's fine, but you're espousing a specific gaming philosophy as fact that many gamers don't necessarily share.
 

FWIW, this is how I see the break-down:

WIZARD
  1. Spellcasting
  2. Ritual Spells*
  3. Arcane Recovery
  4. ASI (x5)
  5. Arcane Tradition Feature (x5)
  6. Spell Mastery**
  7. Signature Spell***

NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without preparing them. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.

** At-will 1st- AND 2nd-level spells could be counted separately.

*** Two extra 3rd-level slots IMO could be counted separately.

COUNT: Depending on how you count those options, you have 15-17 features.

FIGHTER
  1. Fighting Style
  2. Second Wind
  3. Action Surge
  4. Martial Archetype (x5)
  5. ASI (x7)
  6. Extra Attack
  7. Indomitable
COUNT: 17 features.

By my count (anyway) they are fairly even...

UNLESS...

If you want to count access to each spell level (9 in total) instead of 1 (spellcasting), then I would also at least count Extra Attack as 3 instead of 1, but either way the Wizards jump to 23-25 vs. the Fighter at 19. :)
Which do you regard as a feature: the ability to do something new, or when you get to use an ability an additional time?
From here, it looks like the former. So when you pick a Fighting Style or a 1st level spell counts, but you don't count when you get an additional action surge or your 3rd 5th level spell slot for example?
 

I never cared much for CTHD, myself, but in D&D terms I would consider much of the "wire-fu" in the movie as "uncanny" to "magical", certainly not mundane!!! I put it on the same level as Hercules/Xena (done more tastefully, of course!), which I consider mostly tier 4 (perhaps some tier 3?).
By tiers you are referring to levels 11-15 and 16-20?
I believe what you term uncanny to me would be something plausible in mundane views, but insanely incredible. Something like a fighter jumping 60 feet with a running start. Maybe "Matrix" level stuff?
Yes, that's my idea. Escher walking I would place, in my nomenclature, preternatural rather than uncanny. But not supernatural or magical, those are spells, boons, magic items, &c. (That's when Trinity was running along the floor and then ran up the wall, almost like she changed gravity's vector.)

I don't recall that, was it the sword or something in the movie?
Yes, the Green Destiny was the sword everyone was after.
 

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