D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
For a lot of the "that's a spell" crowd it depends a lot on a viable narrative for it to be not magical. Many times the narrative becomes just "too much" beyond reality for it to not be a spell or "superhero"-like power.

When you call a martial ability a spell you are objectively telling a lie.
Just because YOU call it a martial ability, doesn't mean every one else does (see above). There is no truth or lie in this, it is opinion.

Now, if you wish to call someone out with a concrete example, I'm listening.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
When you call a martial ability a spell you are objectively telling a lie.

Mod Note:
So, it is time to consider what your goal is here. Ask yourself what, exactly, you are trying to accomplish in this discussion, and with this post.

Is shoving "LIAR" down someone's throat going to serve your ends? Realistically speaking, for a moment, do you actually expect any good to come of it? TEH TRVTH of LIES has been put out in the universe! But, what do we get from it...

A few people who agree with you are probably nodding to themselves, sure. A few people who disagree with you are... probably thinking you're kind of a jerk. Maybe it felt good. But you probably haven't changed a single mind.

Good work, then? A job well done?

Maybe not so much. Most likely, you've just made sure sides stay entrenched. Which... isn't really admirable.

Next time, try for admirable, please.
 

I still maintain that bringing back bonus feats as the "thing" for martials (the same way spells are the "thing" for casters) is the way to go. Make Martial Adept better (and repeatable), make maneuvers better, give us more.of them, and give them levels. Split them into general and class-specific.

This system allows for complex martials to exist alongside simple ones. Want to be big man who swing pointy stick? Spend your bonus feats on things like Tough, Savage Attacker, and GWM. Want to be more tactical? Grab Martial Adept several times along with Sentinel and Mage Slayer.
I'm not sure. For one, it would be hard to justify a 1/day 3rd level spell as within feat territory, let alone a 9th level spell.

For two, feats are generally good for doing one thing repeatedly and are not easy to swap around. You might end up with the 3.5 issue where fighters often became quite good at only a couple of things by taking the feat trees related to them, and therefore they only did those few tricks. Every round of every fight.
 

Haplo781

Legend
I'm not sure. For one, it would be hard to justify a 1/day 3rd level spell as within feat territory, let alone a 9th level spell.

Why not? Feats will have levels requirements. Why couldn't a level 8 feat give you the equivalent of a 4th-level spell?

For two, feats are generally good for doing one thing repeatedly and are not easy to swap around. You might end up with the 3.5 issue where fighters often became quite good at only a couple of things by taking the feat trees related to them, and therefore they only did those few tricks. Every round of every fight.
A feat that grants you maneuvers means the crunchy bit is in the maneuvers. Just like a feat that grants you spells puts the crunchy bit in the spells.
 

Eubani

Legend
Should crit damage increase as a martial character's level increases? As things stand the crits of Fighters at higher levels becomes more of a joke +1d8 or even +2d6 at Tier 3-4 is a bad joke not critical damage. With HP bloat of many monsters HP pools increasing crit damage over levels would not hurt. If the crit bonus increased by 2 dice each tier each tier could induce the right amount of awe that a crit from a high level Fighter should instill.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Critical hits come up to infrequently that while bonus crit damage would be nice, it wouldn't be a huge benefit. In 4e it was possible to get a lot of bonus crit damage, but I never felt it was worth it. The Champion gets a little more benefit here, but it's still not huge.

The Gladiator NPC has an ability to add an additional die of damage to their weapon attacks. I think this is something the Fighter, especially, could use. Call it "Weapon Mastery" or something.
 

Undrave

Legend
That doesn't mean the limited-use resource has to tie back to short or long rests. (Especially in 5e where short rests aren't so short.) You could have a limited-use resource that works like focus points in 5e Adventures in Rokugan or the warrior rage mechanic in World of Warcraft, or that ties into rolling initiative, say. (Rolling for initiative would be the stand-in for the rush of adrenaline and focusing of the mind on combat that's happening in the fiction.) It could even be a recharge mechanic similar to what monsters use! (Roll a 5-6 and get back your Focus or Grit or whatever you want to call it, which you can use to fuel this trick or that technique.)
Oooh that could be an interesting mechanic!

“When you roll initiative, you gain Focus. Focus allows you to perceive opportunity on the battlefield and use advanced techniques that can’t normally be used, once you use one of those techniques you temporarily lose Focus as battlefield shifts dramatically as a result of your technique. At the start of your turn, or if you score a critical hit, if you do not have Focus, roll a six-sided dice: you regain Focus on a roll of 6. If you are at maximum HP, you can regain Focus on a roll of 5 or 6.”

Then you add various techniques at various levels. Maybe a subclass feature that lets you gain and use Focus on CHA checks so you can use it outside of battle?
 


When you call a martial ability a spell you are objectively telling a lie. You don't have to like the ability or that type of ability but labeling it a spell is lie. One who tells lies is a liar.
we need to find ways to say this that are not insulting.

They are wrong, it is beyond a doubt provable false, becuse there is nothing in common with spells at all. The closest is if you say EVERY special ability (flurry of blows, rage, power attack, dodge, aim, sneak attack) is a spell... and at that point you are twisting the entire system to a breaking point.
 

Celebrim

Legend
we need to find ways to say this that are not insulting.

They are wrong, it is beyond a doubt provable false, becuse there is nothing in common with spells at all. The closest is if you say EVERY special ability (flurry of blows, rage, power attack, dodge, aim, sneak attack) is a spell... and at that point you are twisting the entire system to a breaking point.

I would love to see you try to prove that this is provably false.

First of all, enough of the straw man arguments. No one is saying power attack, aim, or sneak attack is a spell.

Martial mechanics get called spells if they share a sufficient number of qualities with spells. Those qualities would be things like:

a) Time boxed into a certain number of uses per time period. It's particularly egregious when for example you have two equally strenuous combat maneuvers each of which you can only use 1/day or 1/encounter or something. It is easy to explain at the metagame level why this constraint would exist but not at the in game level without a lot of jumping through hoops. Spells often have limitations like this that are "just because" but we accept them (usually) because "magic".
b) Disassociated from a mundane fictional explanation. That is to say, if the mechanic lets you do something that isn't a plausible result of exceptional strength, skill, and speed, and in particular if you can do something according to the mechanic which people of similar strength, skill and speed can't because of an esoteric technique then you have a spell. Examples would be conjuring ammunition into existence at will, stomping on the ground to create an earthquake despite having mundane strength, conjuring elements like fire and lightning into existence with your attacks, ringing your sword against stone to create a powerful sonic attack, etc.
c) Causing effects to happen without contests between the attacker and the target. That is, something happens in the game fiction which could be plausible for the "mere" application of exceptional strength, speed and skill but for whatever reason it always happens regardless of the strength, speed, and skill of the opponent.
d) Explicit flavor texts or mechanics that resemble the flavor text associated with spell-casting classes, such as needing to prepare stances and maneuvers at the beginning of the day from a pool of known maneuvers, having levels of maneuvers from 1st to 9th, having prepared maneuver slots, etc.

So for example, suppose a martial character has to spend 20 minutes practicing his maneuvers to prepare them at the beginning of the day, and he can only perform maneuvers he prepared even if he knows other one, and he has a single 6th level maneuver slot that the decides to fill with a maneuver called "Sonic Boom" that lets him use his weapon to produce a line of sonic energy that does 6d10 damage to all in 60 feet and pushes them back 5 feet, then I think it's fair to call that mechanic a spell even if it is a martial character that is doing it. That's obviously a somewhat extreme example (but there are real examples of the same type in D&D's history), but if the mechanic looks something like that, then don't be surprised if people say, "Effectively, adding that ability to martials is just giving them spells."

Of the mechanics you list, then only one that is spell-like is "Rage", and I'm OK with people seeing Rage as a sort of spell because if you look at the real world origins of the archetype then you are often looking at people who practiced some sort of ritual magic to induce a battle frenzy in themselves and who believed that there was some sort of magic involved (for example it was common to believe across several cultures that the supernatural forces of that culture would harden the warriors skin to make them damage resistant if proper rituals were performed). I won't list a lot of examples out of a desire not to derail the thread with questions of cultural sensitivity, but the archetypal example was the berserkers of Norse culture that believed they were taking on the spiritual and physical power of a bear (and may have been getting themselves high on hallucinogens in order to deaden pain and the shock response from being injured).
 

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