D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

[Vaalingrade]

Apparently though, powers "feel like spells" to some fraction of the player base, and thus they are rejected.

Ironically, in 2e, you could have an ordinary Fighter able to use spells, but I never heard anyone complain about it.

(Savage Fighter Kit from the Complete Fighter's Handbook as an example).

This is why on every one of the D&Done surveys, I'm writing in 'superman dunk every survey that have the words 'feels like' directly into the garbage'.

 

[Eubani]

To get a decent Fighter the designers will need to learn to ignore 3 groups they have been bending over for:
1. Spell caster Supremacist
2. The Fighter has to be Joe Average crowd
3. The Liars ie "That's a spell" crowd

Also mechanically they need to separate the simple and "advanced" Fighter as using the same chassis necessitates too many compromises. Any Fighter class needs to be more defined story wise like the difference between Wizard the learner, Sorcerer By Blood and Warlock the Bargainer. Currently Fighter with either Champion/Battle Master swallows nearly all fighter archetypes into a tasteless paste.

 

[Haplo781]

I still maintain that bringing back bonus feats as the "thing" for martials (the same way spells are the "thing" for casters) is the way to go. Make Martial Adept better (and repeatable), make maneuvers better, give us more.of them, and give them levels. Split them into general and class-specific.

This system allows for complex martials to exist alongside simple ones. Want to be big man who swing pointy stick? Spend your bonus feats on things like Tough, Savage Attacker, and GWM. Want to be more tactical? Grab Martial Adept several times along with Sentinel and Mage Slayer.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Bonus feats didn't work in the ancient, long past times when feats were varied and plentiful. I as someone who thinks feats should have been the core of the game's design, do not think feats alone can fix the issue with martials as long as spells continue to exist unanswered.

 

[Haplo781]

Bonus feats didn't work in the ancient, long past times when feats were varied and plentiful. I as someone who thinks feats should have been the core of the game's design, do not think feats alone can fix the issue with martials as long as spells continue to exist unanswered.

You're correct. That's why I suggest bonus feats plus reworking maneuvers.

(And if we're being real, full casters shouldn't have skill proficiencies. That would do quite a bit to address the utility gap. But that ain't happening.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

To get a decent Fighter the designers will need to learn to ignore 3 groups they have been bending over for:
1. Spell caster Supremacist
2. The Fighter has to be Joe Average crowd
3. The Liars ie "That's a spell" crowd

That’s an interesting take on a ‘+’ thread.

 

[Eubani]

That’s an interesting take on a ‘+’ thread.

The + part is about not arguing if the Fighter needs improving. I agree that it needs to be improved and impediments to that improvement need dealing with.

 

[Guest 7034872]

I don't like to call someone a liar unless I'm really, really sure of it.

 

[Wepwawet]

The character I'm playing currently is a Fighter, and he's the "Wizard" of the party:

He's an Avowed from Candlekeep, he's a Psionic Fighter, he has Str 16, Int 16 and Con 8 (he's made of crystal -- I used the custom race from Tasha's, no homebrew at all).

He's the knowledgeable one of the group when it comes to history and especially arcana. He has a magic item that allows him to do a couple of utility spells, and for 4th level he'll learn Ritual Caster, to fill in for having no Wizard.

Party is: Bard, Warlock, Monk, Eldritch Knight and Psionic Fighter. Playing Candlekeep Mysteries, so it isn't that heavy on fighting (we do do add more fights in it than written)

It's been really fun to play and hasn't felt weak at all

 

[Eubani]

I don't like to call someone a liar unless I'm really, really sure of it.

When you call a martial ability a spell you are objectively telling a lie. You don't have to like the ability or that type of ability but labeling it a spell is lie. One who tells lies is a liar. So yes I am really sure of it. Over the last decade it has been alright to tell such lies but frowned upon to call the liar out for their dishonesty, this needs to stop.