@GMforPowergamers:
To be honest, I'm having a hard time turning this thing between us into a conversation or even a debate.
same you seem more and more to just be picking and picking to try to 'get points' somehow
There is just this strange disconnect between what I said and how you respond.
I feel the same
This is hardly more clear than when you asserted as a fact the unreality of magic and I responded by saying that was a religious claim that was not appropriate to the board or necessary to the discussion, and you responded to that by saying: "knock it off no religon [sic] talk on here". Which in context is a lot like saying in response, "I'm rubber and you're glue, what you say bounces off me and sticks to you." Did you understand my point?
you didn't understand mine. I did NOT mention or even hint at real world religions... you in response named 2. I didn't make it at all about religion YOU DID.
If you didn't understand my point, why did you respond?
my response is clear DON'T TURN TALK ABOUT MAGIC IN THE GAME INTO ONE ABOUT REAL WORLD BELIFE AND RELIGION... no real world religion that I know of believe you can cast magic missile or fireball.
And if you didn't understand my point, why did you respond as you did. It's not really an important point to the conversation, but it is typical of the terse and odd responses you've made that I'm really having trouble making head or tails of your intent.
you tried to turn a very clear statement into a religious argument.
So first of all, we seem to have made something of a breakthrough. You admit that there is such a thing as a supernatural or magical combat maneuver. I'm glad to see it. I was beginning to wonder.
sure there are I talk about them all the time. I think you should have both (or well 3 but not important) options on level up.
First, how do you know that an ability is supernatural and magical?
the system tells you
I'd be really surprised if your reasoning is much different than my reasoning, which you dismissed as "'cause I said so".
again it's not ME saying so it's teh system. Come and Get it wasn't... it was a martial Exploit, Green FLame Blade is it is an arcane spell
Secondly, my argument is that if a power is obviously supernatural or magical, calling it non-supernatural or magical doesn't change that.
the word obviously is the problem... it's YOU making a choice and deciding we must all agree.
I see no reason that "Once per day/long rest you automatically hit with an attack" has to be supernatural at all (again it seems to be the robin hood ability
In other words, it's the substance of the power that determines if it is magical or non-magical not a label you slap on it.
wrong, it's how the fiction handles it that matters, those lables are the fiction.
A jedi uses the force to pull a weapon from an enemy's hand
Harry Potter casts a spell disarming his opponent
Conan slams his axe down disarming his opponent
1 was the force, 1 was magic, 1 was training, same effect
For example, I suspect you'd agree that a 3rd level martial maneuver whose text read, "1/day you can cast fireball as the spell", would not be non-supernatural just because we called it non-supernatural.
I mean sure, but no one is suggesting it is... I don't understand this line at all.
I suspect you'd agree that that would be or at least ought to be one of those supernatural or magical abilities, and I might even get you to agree that in such a hypothetical case the fact that I'd made a pass through wrapper for a spell didn't make it less of a spell. The facade here doesn't change the underlying thing, no matter how much I disguise it.
but if you had 'a number of times per day equal to your prof you can make a jump and go three times your normal max' special option a fighter could take that doesn't mean they are casting jump.
I didn't claim he was. I don't know why you think this sentence refutes anything I said.
he hits... he keeps hitting he doesn't miss with his shots... you said any 'auto hit' ability would be magic
Are you asserting that Robin Hood has abilities that let him choose once a day to not miss?
yes... he doesn't miss
That is to say, do you think he used a power to split the arrow or was it an exercise in mundane (albeit it extraordinary) skill?
yes
Because I think if you are asserting Robin Hood has daily powers that let him impose his will on reality because he wants to, you are saying he is magic.
no he isn't magic he is a protagonist.
But if you are saying that Robin Hood is merely a skillful archer then there is no need to imagine a special "can't miss this shot" power that he can access only a few times a day.
in the narrative he doesn't miss. he doesn't have a 'chance of missing' he always gets the shaft and splits the arrow.
That is questionable. Beyond mundane doesn't necessarily equal a spell, but it probably indicates some sort of magic exactly because this is a fantasy game. But what is your point, since you seem to be neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything I said. What made you say that?
davy crocket and robin hood and Odysseus don't use magic... they do bigger then life things (or batman or hawkeye in more modern stories)
no magic... just a hero protagonist training and smart and able to do things amazing
Again, not sure what point you are trying to prove? Can the wrestler do the thing without special FX, hidden ropes, and other props?
most likely not... I mean if they could why would they need those props and FX?
If he can't then of course it isn't magic. But if we hypothesize a martial ability that lets the martial character conjure those props into being whether they have them or not, then we probably would call that magic.
again, we know in the real world it is staged, and tricks... but we buy into the story of the wrestlers doing these things. All I am asking is that we do the same with fighters.
davy crocket and robin hood and Odysseus don't use magic... they do bigger then life things (or batman or hawkeye in more modern stories)
no magic... just a hero protagonist training and smart and able to do things amazing
Like for example, if we a power like, "Spread Bear Traps" that said, "Once per day you can fill a square with bear traps that create difficult terrain and which do 2d8 damage to anyone that enters the square.", that is actually a magical ability in disguise because the power doesn't require you to actually have bear traps to spread around and it is implied you can't do it twice or three times if you carry extra bear traps (on a mule or something). On the other hand, no one would think it a magical power if you could just buy bear traps and use them. Do you see the difference, and do you see why one is actually a spell?
nope... I do not see EITHER as a spell. I see it as abstract mechanic vs concreate mechanic but if it isn't magic it isn't magic...
in Call of Cthulhu and some other games there is a roll you can make to rewrite the scene... it isn't magic, your character isn't rewriting the scene (ala bill and ted saying to remember the trash can) it is just the way it always has been... no magic
you asked why everyone can't do everything... because the game is set up so that there are silos of abilities. barbarians rage, not rangers or fighters. if you want to rage you multi into barbarian (or take a multi class feat or something)
that is what I am asking for, to increase the siloed abilities of the fighter.
What are you trying to say by saying this? The classes are typically seen as abstractions of the actual abilities of the characters.
yes like your bear trap power would be an abstraction.... it wouldn't be 'magically make a trap' it's 'you had the trap' just like if you want to rage you take a level in barbarian...
That is to say, particularly with a martial class, not something that exists in the fiction per se, but rather is an abstraction of the sort of abilities we might think common to people of certain professions and backgrounds within the setting. Even with something like 'wizard' or 'cleric' which exists both in and outside of the fiction, we are simply saying that a wizard is 'someone who has trained and studied as a wizard'. We aren't actually saying that in the fiction that the character has the class wizard. The class is not a thing in the fictional universe.
again you jump from in game to out of game at break neck speeds to try to make your points... I don't think you are doing it well.
You asked why not anyone could rage. I explained why.
Aren't you agreeing with me here?
yes and no I am trying to show your ideal of how D&D works isn't how D&D worked in any edition I ever played, so i don't understand why you are arguing against increasing thee silo of fighter abilities.
Again, what prompted you to say this? What point are you trying to make by agreeing with me here, if that is what you are doing? You are referring to my discussion of sneak attack, right? Aren't you just repeating back to me what I just said?
I am showing that we have silo of abilities in classes. They are NOT based on in game fiction (or no action surge, anyone coulld sneak attack, anyone could rage) so the entire argument falls apart.
