What Each Spellcaster Is To You

[Chris_Nightwing]

I'll have a go at pinning down my thoughts on these three..

Wizard
I see the Wizard as the professor. They are at home in a library or quiet study, but when push comes to shove they get out there to take a look at things. So they have considerable knowledge, and their ability to use magic comes through this, just as a mathematician can derive fundamental facts about the universe, only more practical.
I like the idea of different schools, or traditions in wizardry. Whether they would be based on the traditional magic schools (or a reduced version), or styles, I don't know. Within the scope of the academic Wizard I could imagine warmage colleges and research institutes and hedge wizards.

Sorcerer
These guys are the creatives, the artistic savants. Rather than study the universe, the universe has taken a bizarre interest in them and fate has granted them innate magical powers. Everything comes naturally to them without study, but they never have complete control over manifestations of their power. I dislike bloodlines and possessions to explain these features.
Like musicians or artists, their powers are focused around a central talent. I can imagine elementalists in tune with those particular planes, illusionists who can manipulate force, light and sound, and diviners with Cassandra-like knowledge of the future. They are more like superheroes than the traditional Wizard.

Warlock
Warlocks don't have the patience to study magic, and they were never blessed with innate power, so they have sought it out for themselves, or in some cases had it thrust upon them. Their power is granted by some powerful being, but this needn't follow the rules of divinity - once a bargain is struck it cannot be undone by either party.
As well as the traditional Faustian pact with an evil being, I can also imagine the opposite - a character redeemed or chosen by some force of good. In both cases the acquisition of more power results in the loss of some personal quality, as a fair deal with evil or a neccessary sacrifice for good.

 

[The Shadow]

Hey, it goes beyond that. In a pre-modern setting, what kind of people are going to have the time and money and literacy to sit around reading a bunch of books on magic, and what kind of people get accepted as apprentices or students at a wizard school?

I was actually referring to clerics, but your point is well taken.

The OP's idea was that warlocks see the usual 'deal' between gods and worshippers to be way too one-sided, and sell their souls in a more equitable, quid pro quo sort of way.

(I suppose one could easily spin that as more Objectivist than Bolshevik, which is even funnier!)

Your point remains, though: The way of the warlock might well appeal to those don't have access to power any other way. Warlocks do seem to require literacy, however.

As well as the traditional Faustian pact with an evil being, I can also imagine the opposite - a character redeemed or chosen by some force of good. In both cases the acquisition of more power results in the loss of some personal quality, as a fair deal with evil or a neccessary sacrifice for good.

Huh! While I can certainly see someone "redeemed" in the way you say, I have a hard time imagining it looking like the warlock class.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Huh! While I can certainly see someone "redeemed" in the way you say, I have a hard time imagining it looking like the warlock class.

Hm, let me see if I can come up with an example..

If you've played Tales of Symphonia, then the character of Colette is 'chosen' to renew the world, and as a result she has various magical powers. However, as she develops (and the plot progresses), she also loses the ability to sense temperature, pain, the ability to talk, and eventually independent thought as she becomes an angel.

It would be nice if there was an option that wasn't essentially selfish/evil, if you see what I mean.

 

[The Shadow]

Hm, let me see if I can come up with an example..

If you've played Tales of Symphonia, then the character of Colette is 'chosen' to renew the world, and as a result she has various magical powers. However, as she develops (and the plot progresses), she also loses the ability to sense temperature, pain, the ability to talk, and eventually independent thought as she becomes an angel.

I find the idea of angels losing independent thought to be more than a little creepy and un-good, but I see your point otherwise.

It would be nice if there was an option that wasn't essentially selfish/evil, if you see what I mean.

Hmmm. I think I do. Though I don't see the warlock as evil, necessarily, it certainly is hard to imagine a good-aligned person choosing to become one, or remaining good-aligned for long if they did. And while one could easily imagine a "Celestial pact" that involved sacrificing your time and energy (ie, going on quests!) it would be a little hard to reconcile with the "mad scientist" vibe the warlock is rocking otherwise. You'd probably have to refluff a lot of the invocations, and the way invocations are gained, too.

Basically, if you're good-aligned and you want to serve, why not become a cleric? What's the attraction of becoming a warlock?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I find the idea of angels losing independent thought to be more than a little creepy and un-good, but I see your point otherwise.

Oh, well it was more complicated than good/evil it turns out, but until you find out it works as an example

Hmmm. I think I do. Though I don't see the warlock as evil, necessarily, it certainly is hard to imagine a good-aligned person choosing to become one, or remaining good-aligned for long if they did. And while one could easily imagine a "Celestial pact" that involved sacrificing your time and energy (ie, going on quests!) it would be a little hard to reconcile with the "mad scientist" vibe the warlock is rocking otherwise. You'd probably have to refluff a lot of the invocations, and the way invocations are gained, too.

Basically, if you're good-aligned and you want to serve, why not become a cleric? What's the attraction of becoming a warlock?

I can see the Fey pact as presented being quite neutral. Any diabolic/demonic pact would be rather evil though. I figure there are good beings other than gods that might also seek champions in the mortal realm, but perhaps we're treading into Paladin territory.

 

[Minigiant]

To me I think I can better explain the classes through an analogy. Character Sheets.

A wizard read forums, looks up charts, and discuss theory when they make characters. A wizard actually OWNS the PHB and supplement books. They actually know how to made PC. They can be anything and learn anything since they know how to play. But they are limited by time and money.

A sorcerer is a newbie print a character sheet pregnant from their friend's site. They have what is on the sheet. They just inherit the sheet. A broken overpower character sheet.

A warlock is the DM's friend, relative, or lover. They are given a sheet and bribe the DM for more power.


The wizard are arcanists that actually study the ways of magic. They are more like the Normal Supers of comics like Tony Stark and Batman. They spend years honing their craft and sacrifice the time for training their bodies and not magical skills for learning more magic.

Sorcerers are magic. They are born magic and eventually they stop really qualifying as normal for their race. When a sorcerer gestures, spells just come out. The spells are tied to their blood and soul. Learning knew spells are difficult as it is much like rewriting the soul.

The warlock is usually a normal person whose unwilling to learn magic through the proper channels. They instead learn through trades rather than years of study. Magical beings powerful enough to offer to some of their power gladly do for some of the offers of the warlocks. A man recieves devil eyes and imps on call. An elf gets nymph beauty and passage into fey realms.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It would be nice if there was an option that wasn't essentially selfish/evil, if you see what I mean.

That's sort of why I took a bit of a "Bolshevik" view of some of the Warlocks and tied them to Divine magic like that. It could also be seen as a collectivist/individualist dynamic ("We all work for the glory of Pelor!" vs. "I work for my OWN glory, and use that better than Pelor would!") or a communist/capitalist dynamic ("The gods give gifts to each according to their need, and only demand sacrifices from each according to their ability." vs. "No old bearded dude on a cloud can tell ME how to be a better person.") or a law/chaos dynamic ("Lets all follow the Code of Asmodeus!" vs. "I follow my own code!").

Warlocks are almost necessarily rebellious. They may not be EVIL, but part of the appeal of a warlock is that it is outside of the normal methods of magic, outside of the control of church and guild, lone agents. It's also part of the appeal of a Sorcerer, though for Sorcs, it's more "Life Will Find A Way" and with Warlocks it's more like "I Made Some Dinosaurs, I Can Play God!"

 

[CleverNickName]

To me, a wizard is the quintessential arcane spellcaster. They come in all shapes and sizes, from all backgrounds and walks of life. Some study ancient tomes and scrolls, others study under a master, some learn the craft in their dank and candle-lit basements in secret, some learned the gift through a pact with terrible creatures from the Abyss.

A sorcerer is a wizard variant, for players who don't want to prepare spells.

A warlock is a wizard variant, for players who want at-will spellcasting.

 

[The Shadow]

Oh, well it was more complicated than good/evil it turns out, but until you find out it works as an example

That's the Japanese for you. I recall how stunned and disappointed I was at the end of an anime whose name escapes me at the moment, when the hero uses the swords of ultimate good and evil that had been the quest object the whole time together to defeat the Realio Trulio 'Bad' Guy that showed up. (I say 'bad', but apparently both good and evil opposed him, though they'd been fighting each other tooth and nail up til then, and the evil side was plenty evil.) What?! Different cultural assumptions, that's for sure.

I can see the Fey pact as presented being quite neutral. Any diabolic/demonic pact would be rather evil though. I figure there are good beings other than gods that might also seek champions in the mortal realm, but perhaps we're treading into Paladin territory.

Oh, sure. The Verenestra pact doesn't seem actively evil. It just doesn't seem very... nice.

I could see a good person entering a pact with a fey as a desperate attempt to save his village, the people he loves, etc. ... but as he gets deeper in, it's hard to see him remaining pure of heart. Could make for a great story!

I could also see good beings, lesser than gods, empowering mortals. I just have trouble seeing it coming in the form of a pact. It just feels... off. A pact just isn't a very wholehearted commitment, you know? Both sides meet their contractual obligations and go about their lives otherwise.

Huh! Here's a thought. Maybe the forces of celestial good sometimes try to 'tempt' someone to their side, so to speak. In other words, a Celestial pact isn't really intended for good-aligned people at all, but for neutrals. "You want power. Fine, you may have some, at the price of saving orphans, feeding the hungry, and so forth, without accepting reward." The hope on the celestial side is that (along with accomplishing good deeds) the person will find it grows on them and eventually come wholeheartedly to accept it as a way of life. (The idea of a warlock/paladin is seriously bizarre, but in this scenario might actually make sense! Though it would make more narrative sense to me for the warlock levels to get traded in.)

Heck, maybe in some nations, heinous crimes can be atoned for by accepting a Celestial pact. "As long as you abide by the terms, you don't get executed. Sounds good, right? Believe me, you'll be working off your crimes."

The only trouble is, as I mentioned before, many of the invocations will need to be *seriously* refluffed. This shouldn't be excessively hard... Baleful Utterance could become something closer to Holy Word. But it's still work - for example, the mannerisms of each invocation would have to be looked at. I don't see cosmic goodness inclining people to OCD.

EDIT: Though perhaps the mannerisms come not so much from cosmic goodness, as dealing with the burden of an outside power?

 

[Greg K]

Wizard: I agree with you about being the studious person. The first thing that comes to mind is Gary from the Supernatural episode when the teenagers captured Sam and Gary took over his body. Gary had no innate ability to cast magic. He had not made a pact with a Demon. He simply found a book of spells and studied it.

Sorcerer: At the moment, I am disappointed with the sorcerer. I like the idea of innate magic granted by a heritage. It fits many of the characters that people think of when they think magic user: Merlin (infernal heritage in some stories), Merlin from the TV series (Dragonlord heritage), Morgan La Fey (Fey heritage in at least one version), Harry Potter characters, the witches from "Bewitched", Harry Dresden. They all have a heritage/lineage that grants them the ability to work magical. Even the sisters and warlocks on Charmed receive spell casting through their bloodline. The concept will be familiar to people

However, with the Next sorcerer, I dislike the dual soul and Draconic Heritage transformation if they access to much power. It does not fit any of the above the characters. None of them undergo some physical change. I don't mind the transformation thing being an option like 3e heritage feats, but I don't think it should be hardwired into the class.
To fit with the examples that I provided, I think there should be an option similar to a common 3e house rule in which sorcerers received the feat Eschew Materials and then received metamagic to represent their innate magic allowing them to shape spells.
By keeping these things as options rather than hard wiring them into a heritage, it provides easier customization when designing the campaign setting or players trying to capture a particular version they have seen in media or read in a book

Furthermore, I also disagree with Draconic heritage granting proficiency with armor and weapons beyond the base sorcerer. There is nothing about "I have ancestral dragon blood granting spell casting" that warrants additional armor and weapon training.

Pact Magic: The concept is pretty well known. Usually, Pact magic involves an entity granting a favor/wish (save the life of a loved one, health (if sick or dying), power, wealth, success, fame, etc. in exchange for something (a soul, first born). Often, the entity approaches people. Other times, individuals seek out the entity. However, we do see examples of Pact Magic granting the ability to wield magic. The first things that come to my mind as examples of the latter are:

The witches in "The Craft"
The witches in "The Witches of Eastwick"
Witches in the TV show Supernatural: They gain spell casting from making a deal with a demon. This includes the housewife book club members whom were casting spells that brought them good fortune (even if they did not realize that they had pledged themselves to a demon).

In several 70's occult movies and TV shows like Kolchak, we also see satanists making deals and sometimes getting spellcasting power or the ability to do things like shapeshift into an animal.

Therefore, I think the Warlock class in Next is on the right track.

My issues
1. I don't like the spell list and hope it undergoes change and is expanded (actually, I don't like the sorcerer's either)
2. I think there needs to be a cost with breaking the Pact. If someone breaks a pact in the sources with which I am familiar, the entity takes the person's life or there is some other punishment including the removal of granted powers.