What ECL penalty should I give for a gestalt character?

[szilard]

The exception among NPC classes being Expert, which is potentially worth +2 LA because it makes qualifing for PrC's so much easier.

Again, though, it depends on what it is combined with - if you combine it with a class that already gets a good number of skill points and a good Will save (say, a Beguiler) - all you get are some extra class skills. Useful? Sure. +2 LA? Not so much.

-Stuart

 

[Sadrik]

I am not too worried about them gestalting the weak combinations. So really I need to apply a high enough LA to make the more powerful combinations balanced with a "single" classed character.

I feel pretty secure with a +3 LA.
Can anyone make a strong argument for +2 or +4?

 

[irdeggman]

Hmm, I don't see using gestalt characters as an optional thing. What I mean is the game is either designed for it or not it shouldn't be an option for some players to use.

This eliminates the problem with trying to figure out the LA for gestalt since this is designed for ensuring that all PCs are basically "equal".

 

[Crothian]

I wouldn't combine the two. Either have all players use Gestalt or none of them. It really is not an option to be used together.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I am not too worried about them gestalting the weak combinations. So really I need to apply a high enough LA to make the more powerful combinations balanced with a "single" classed character.

I feel pretty secure with a +3 LA.
Can anyone make a strong argument for +2 or +4?

Let's compare a rogue3/wizard5/arcane trickster 6 to a gestalt rogue/wizard 11/11.

Arcane Trickster:
6 + 2d6 + 11d4 + 14x con (say 16 w/ magic) hitpoints = 83 hitponts on average
Fort Save: +4 base
Reflex Save: +9 base
Will Save: +10 base
BAB = +9
Caster level = 11, 6th level spells
Skill points (assuming 16 int) = 66 + 25 + 42 = 133 skill points
skill rank cap = 17
6d6 sneak attack
Ranged Legerdemain 2/day
Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day
Trap Sense +1
Scribe Scroll
Familiar - 5th levels of progression

Gestalt:
6 + 10d6 + 11x con hitpoints = 74 hitpoints on average
Fort Save: +3 base
Reflex Save: +7 base
Will Save: +7 base
BAB = +8
Caster level = 11, 6th level spells
Skill points = 121 skill points
skill rank cap = 14
6d6 sneak attack
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +3
Rogue Special Ability
Scribe Scroll
Familiar - 11 levels of progression
2 Wizard bonus feats

The Arcane Trickster seems better off, but not by a whole lot. +2 LA might be better. This isn't the most powerful gestalt combo available, but it's a fairly obvious one to take if someone wants to do a spellcasting rogue and by no means underpowered.

 

[Vargo]

I've considered allowing gestalt in a campaign before as an option, with a +2 LA by default, but with prior DM approval. Especially munchy gestalt builds (Sorc/Paladin, Druid/Monk or Druid/Fighter for instance) got an additional +1 LA on top.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

I play gestalt in my home game, and I would not recomend letting your players mix and match with gestalt. Either do it all regular, or all gestalt, to better balance the party.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Another interesting compariosn is a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge vs. Wizard/Cleric gestalt.

At +3 LA at 14th ECL, they have the same spellcasting ability and probably fairly similiar hitpoints, saves, and BAB. The wizard bonus feats are pretty nice for the gestalt, but on the other hand he can't take the Practiced Spellcaster feat and is going to be at a disadvantage there.

Yeah, I'd say +3 LA is pretty on the money.

 

[Sadrik]

I am going to allow PHB, DMG, and the 4 complete books (adventurer, arcane, divine, and warrior).

What are the best combos for an 11/11 vs. a 14?

Paladin/Sorcerer- seems a logical choice but they cant wear armor and wont really suffer MAD more than a paladin already does.
Favored soul/sorcerer- a good combo but at 11th the characters will only have 5th level spells not 6th. Note in comparison a 14 wiz or sor would have 7th level spells.
Barbarian/rogue seems pretty handy.
Swashbuckler/rogue could be fun.
Scout/rogue?

How would a ninja/rogue work? they would in effect have double the sneak attack with their sudden strike ability? Are their some limitation that I am not remembering?

 

[ValhallaGH]

When they could get Sudden Strike damage (basically in the first round and when attacking from invisibility) they would get double their d6s; negated by undeath, construct type, elementals, plants, oozes, probably other creatures that I'm forgetting, being flippin' big (vitals out of reach), or having heavy fortification on armor. Getting to roll all those d6s will likely be rare. Ninja is a weak adventuring class (awesome assassin class), though combining it with rogue could open up some interesting synergies that would make the character playable and fun.