What ECL penalty should I give for a gestalt character?

[Engilbrand]

Don't do it. I love Gestalt and want to play more of it. BUT, it is NOT meant to be used for one person. It's all or nothing. If only one person wants to play Gestalt, don't let him. If it's the whole group, then the LA or ECL don't matter. You just subtract one from the CR and you're fine. Keep the hit dice in mind. While everyone loves to talk about averages, I have a party where only one or two people have rolled well. Fighters got 1s and 2s. That sucks. If you let one character hit level 20 and the other is only level 15 but Gestalt, it's WILL NOT be fair to the Gestalt character. So he has a few more options. Woopee! That's it. He doesn't have more attacks. He doesn't have a higher base attack bonus. (That assumes that both are fighters or mages or something equal.) AND he has a lot fewer hit points. By this point, he could be 50 hit points behind the level 20 character. That's not right. Do it or don't do, but don't kinda do it or it WILL FAIL.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

I have to agree with everyone who has said to not mix gestalt and non-gestalt - just don't do it, it isn't balanced. I believe that it even says so in the gestalt rules (although I don't have a copy with me to double-check).

 

[Drowbane]

I wouldn't combine the two. Either have all players use Gestalt or none of them. It really is not an option to be used together.

QFT (I seem to do that alot with Crothian )

 

[Drowbane]

nitpick

the book segguest a +1 ECL...

Really? Are you sure? They didn't print that in my copy.

They did suggest that you take 1 or 2 off of CRs with gestalts to keep XP about right... but that isn't close to the samething.

ECL +1 (class) 20 | (class) 20 = Epic.
(class) 20 | (class) 20 = had to fight harder to get there.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I don't see anyone offering any mechanical justification for why mixing gestalt with a LA and normal characters is such a bad idea.

I did a side by side comparison of two characters, and they seemed to stack up. Go ahead, inspect my comparison. Tell me why those two characters won't work equally well. What exactly is the problem?

 

[Pyrex]

With Gestalt, you generally focus on making one class effective, and then use the benefits of the other class to compliment it. For example, Paladin/Sorceror works best (IMO) if you focus on the Sorceror angle and pump your CHA like crazy - but you still get decent BAB, and some really nice 'n meaty saving throws, especially with your CHA bonus to saves.

Or you take Still Spell, put on your Plate armor and go the other way around.

 

[Pyrex]

I guess it's safe to assume, though, that people won't combine two very similar classes (i.e. Barbarian and Ranger).

Generally speaking, yes, players will tend toward stronger combos. I just needed a point to illustrate the weaker end of the gestalt scale.

 

[Thanee]

What exactly is the problem?

There is none. While Gestalt and non-Gestalt do work on different power scales, so do many other things in D&D. It's just one more variable. Once you have a couple dozen of those, one more or less won't really change much.

As long as everyone has the same options available and can freely decide to go Gestalt or not, I don't see any problems there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

I don't see anyone offering any mechanical justification for why mixing gestalt with a LA and normal characters is such a bad idea.

I did a side by side comparison of two characters, and they seemed to stack up. Go ahead, inspect my comparison. Tell me why those two characters won't work equally well. What exactly is the problem?

Well, let's see... you artificially balanced the two by trying different LAs until you found a combo that worked.

Sure, you could do that to balance anything, and thus permanently do away with the "X is Overpowered!" arguments (insert whatever the flavor of the month is for X) - but that is not, (in my opinion) what LAs are for. If you and your group are fine with that, then go ahead. But I still have the opinion that they are not meant to work with regular classes... and unfortunately, I do not have my copy of the book with me, but I still believe I recall reading, explicitly, in the gestalt rules that they are not meant to be mixed with 'regular' class leveling rules.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Well, let's see... you artificially balanced the two by trying different LAs until you found a combo that worked.

I picked the first one that came to mind. Pick another and I'll try that.

Sure, you could do that to balance anything, and thus permanently do away with the "X is Overpowered!" arguments (insert whatever the flavor of the month is for X) - but that is not, (in my opinion) what LAs are for.

??????

That's exactly what Level Adjustments are for! What the heck did you think they were for?

If you and your group are fine with that, then go ahead. But I still have the opinion that they are not meant to work with regular classes... and unfortunately, I do not have my copy of the book with me, but I still believe I recall reading, explicitly, in the gestalt rules that they are not meant to be mixed with 'regular' class leveling rules.

But where does your opinion come from? Actual play experience? An attempt to actually consider the mechanics and compare characters with each other to determine power level? Or just some kind of gut feel?

If you're going to offer an opinion, back it up! Show me an analysis of the capabilties of a +3 LA gestalt character and explain why it's not balanced with a regular character. (At ECL 14, please, since that's the game being discussed.)

I'm sure you're perfectly right about what the gestalt rules say about not mixing, but I don't take that as the word of god. Just because the book says something isn't a good idea doesn't mean we can't consider whether the book is incorrect.