What ECL penalty should I give for a gestalt character?

[javcs]

Scout/Rogue - Spring Attack into flanking position. Skirmish plus Sneak Attack - not as punishing as a Ninja/Rogue, but he'd also get an AC bonus.

Ninja/Rogue would wind up with massive MAD - Dex, Wis, Con, Str(probably), Int(for skills, not necessarily vital, but good to have). The only one you don't really need is Cha, but then you're not as good with several handy skills (Bluff to feint, etc. Disguise, UMD).
Scout/Rogue doesn't have as much MAD - everything you need for one, you need for the other (maybe not Cha as much for Scouts).

 

[Vargo]

With Gestalt, you generally focus on making one class effective, and then use the benefits of the other class to compliment it. For example, Paladin/Sorceror works best (IMO) if you focus on the Sorceror angle and pump your CHA like crazy - but you still get decent BAB, and some really nice 'n meaty saving throws, especially with your CHA bonus to saves.

This is also why the Monk/Druid is such a vicious combination - Wildshape+Monk unarmed skills+WIS synchronicity+total lack of MAD (Wildshape on the Druid side takes care of the Monk physical traits) just kicks a LOT of butt.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

I give them +1 for every 3 gestalt levels.

 

[pawsplay]

Ninja/sorcerer is pretty nasty. Invisibility + sudden strike, grease + sudden strike, touch of idiocy + blindness + sudden strike, hold person + ray of frost + sudden strike....

 

[Thanee]

The best combinations are those that have lots of stacked passive abilities, i.e. fighters are generally good, since there are many feats, that grant passive bonuses (don't have to be used actively, which usually means exclusively), warlock is often good for similar reasons, as is rogue. Spellcasters, in general, also are pretty good, but that's no big news I guess.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sadrik]

This is also why the Monk/Druid is such a vicious combination - Wildshape+Monk unarmed skills+WIS synchronicity+total lack of MAD (Wildshape on the Druid side takes care of the Monk physical traits) just kicks a LOT of butt.

I am pretty sure a monk would lose his iterative attacks if wildshaped. However he would get some pretty good AC bonuses and other things like stat boosts which would be real nice. Not a super killer combo but very strong. A simple fighter/monk would also be very good.

An uber character would be a warlock/ninja or warlock/rogue all those sneak attack dice with the ranged touch attacks. Ew.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I am pretty sure a monk would lose his iterative attacks if wildshaped. However he would get some pretty good AC bonuses and other things like stat boosts which would be real nice. Not a super killer combo but very strong. A simple fighter/monk would also be very good.

An uber character would be a warlock/ninja or warlock/rogue all those sneak attack dice with the ranged touch attacks. Ew.

Not so. The Wildshaped Monk has a choice between the natural attack routine OR the unarmed strikes with iteratives and flurry.

As to weak/strong gestalts, in my opinion, the weakest gestalt using core classes only is Rogue/Bard. It has the same Hit Dice and BAB as the two base classes, the same skill points as Rogue (and only 2 more than Rogue), the same saves as Bard (Will gained from Rogue), so basically just a few Rogue passives gained over the Bard, and you can't really use all of them because of lack of actions.

Anyways, due to disparity in power levels of certain combos, when I created my new base classes based on the gestalt combinations to make multiclassing and such easier (found in House Rules under Encyclopaedia Altanica) I gave extra neat powers to the weaker combos.

 

[Maldor]

the book segguest a +1 ECL

i played in a couple of games like that and it worked fine nither were mixed though at least none of the PC

i alway thought of a ECL as a pretty big thing you give up hit pionts, skill level, spell level, BAB, and saves so it has to give a good plus or your better off just taking the level.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I play in a campaign were all PCs are gestalt (worlds largest dungeon), and all have a +1ECL.

I don't think I'd want to play in a campaign with some gestalt and some non-gestalt though.

 

[brehobit]

I am going to allow PHB, DMG, and the 4 complete books (adventurer, arcane, divine, and warrior).

What are the best combos for an 11/11 vs. a 14?

By limiting yourself to these books you've killed off some of the biggest problems. Marshal is something that works _really_ well as a gestalt. Too well probably. By the same token, the Bo9S classes take huge advantage of swift actions. Also very powerful in a gestalt. As noted by others, _passive_ abilities are huge for gestalt characters (which is why marshal rocks).

Using only core + complete I really don't see anything that needs an ECL adjustment of more than +2. Full casters lose a level of casting in exchange for hitpoints and BAB. Rogue/warrior-types are probably more powerful than pure rogues 2 levels higher once you pass level 8 or so. The BAB, feat and hp improvement come at a cost of 1d6 sneak attack and 2 ranks off all skills. Even +3 is probably low there, but I think rogues are pretty weak at high levels, so I don't really see the problem.

Mark