What Empowered value gets multiplied?

[Dr_Rictus]

Well, nothing I can say is going to stop you from second-guessing whether the designers actually meant what they've said.

I would add, though, that it would be a mistake to go by the average effect alone in judging which feat you'd rather apply in a given case. Maximize Spell always has the additional advantage of making the effect of the spell more reliable, which is a useful thing in a tactical situation.

 

[Nail]

Re: Maximize vs Empower

I think y'all are missing a major peice: Empower doesn't empoer the average, it empowers what ever you actually roll. So there can be a potential of getting *less than average* from an empowered spell.

Maximize has no such uncertainty.

(Darn. Dr. R beat me to it.)

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes, the PHB clearly states in its example that an empowered magic missile does (1d4+1)*1.5 points of damage per missile. It's my guess that this example is simply wrong.

Given that the rules are invented, not discovered, they are by definition correct, until errata'ed.

There's no problem with changing the rules yourself, but as written, empower applies to the whole variable effect, not just to the die in the variable.

Daniel

 

[Lamoni]

This was actually intended as a perfectly reasonable intention by the designers. I apologize if it seemed sarcastic.

...

However, I'm still convinced that that was not the actual intent of the designers.

You didn't sound sarcastic. I agree that what you mentioned could have been the intent of the designers. I have no way of knowing what their intent was though so I was just mentioning how using it like it reads doesn't really step on maximizes toes too much.

Like others have said, maximize is also very nice in that it takes out the randomness. It also is nice in that you can stack it with empower and get a flamestrike that does an automatic 132 damage. (Well they still get the saving throw, but half is still 66) That would of course require an epic character or a prestige class that can reduce the cost of metamagic feats though. I mentioned a fireball at first, but 132 damage sounded so much better than 90.

 

[nhl_1997]

I do have one more argument that only the dice rolled receive the multiplier.

A prestige class exists, probably in the complete divine, with these class abilities:
level 1: All cure spells are automatically empowered
level 6: All cure spells are automatically maximized. This supercedes the empowered ability.
level 10: All cure spells are both empowered and maximized

Apparently, whoever designed this prestige class was under the impression that maximized cures are better than empowered cures. Perhaps, the reasoning is due to the stability factor noted by Dr_Rictus. Let's look at Cure Serious Wounds at 15+ caster level....

maximized: 39
minimum empowered using magic missile example: 27
maximum empowered: 58
estimate of average: 42

quick math note: getting the exact average is not as simple as taking (3*4.5+15)*1.5 (three dice with an average roll of 4.5) however it's a close enough estimate.

.... or perhaps it's because whoever designed this prestige class was under the impression that only the dice rolled receive the 1.5 multiplier. Note, even if that is true, it doesn't necessarily mean that the empowered example in the PHB is wrong. Instead, it simply means that different designers might have had alternative interprutations of the rule.

I've said all I can on this topic.... will refrain from posting more until someone manages to convince me that I'm wrong. That is actually quite possible.

 

[Scion]

empower does tend to be stronger than maximise.. but then improved toughness tends to be stronger than toughness

not all feats are equal, personally I would like to see maximise get some sort of boost, not empower be cut down.

oh, and (d4+1) is a variable number, it just so happens that number is somewhere between 2 and 5 Or, by the other way, the total number from all of the dice is the variable. I merely like to think of a spell doing a certain amount of damage and then that being multiplied, makes it easier.

 

[Nail]

quick math note: getting the exact average is not as simple as taking (3*4.5+15)*1.5 (three dice with an average roll of 4.5) however it's a close enough estimate.

Not true. That is the "exact" average. Perhaps you are thinking of some other term in statistics?

 

[Dr_Rictus]

A prestige class exists, probably in the complete divine, with these class abilities:
level 1: All cure spells are automatically empowered
level 6: All cure spells are automatically maximized. This supercedes the empowered ability.
level 10: All cure spells are both empowered and maximized

Apparently, whoever designed this prestige class was under the impression that maximized cures are better than empowered cures.

Yeah, that's the Radiant Servant of Pelor.

And I think this indicates a lack of thought on the part of the designer of the class, since under either interpretation there are reasons to prefer Empower to Maximize as well as vice versa. The potential upside for Empower is higher, so it's a better choice in a desperate situation where even the maximum result just won't do.

For example: say I have caster level 14, and I'm fighting an undead who I strongly believe has 50 hit points. And if I don't kill him this round, he's going to do something horrible. I'd rather use an Empowered cure critical wounds than a Maximized one any day, since it has at least a chance of doing 50 hit points of damage to him (under either interpretation), whereas a Maximized one has zero chance of doing so.

Not a situation that comes up a lot, but as you point out, for the logic of the class's ability progression to work, you really want Maximize to be strictly better than Empower in all ways. And it's not, no matter which way you slice it.

So, conversely, I don't see how you can construct an argument about which way to slice it based on a design goal of one feat being strictly better than the other. Which leaves you talking about which one is generally better than the other, which for most spells is in fact still (correctly) Maximize Spell.

(As an aside, personally, I allow Radiant Servants to choose between Maximize and Empower at 6th level).

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Not true. That is the "exact" average. Perhaps you are thinking of some other term in statistics?

No, nhl_1997 is correct, because the formula is not (normal result * 1.5), but (normal result * 1.5, round down), and you have to round down about half the time.

Take the simple example of a cure light wounds at caster level 5. The average result is 4.5+5, or 9.5. 1.5 times that is 14.25. However, an Empowered Cure Light Wounds at the same caster level has an equal chance of healing 9,10,12,13,15,16,18, or 19 hit points, which averages exactly 14.

 

[Pielorinho]

I do have one more argument that only the dice rolled receive the multiplier.

A prestige class exists, probably in the complete divine, with these class abilities:
level 1: All cure spells are automatically empowered
level 6: All cure spells are automatically maximized. This supercedes the empowered ability.
level 10: All cure spells are both empowered and maximized

Apparently, whoever designed this prestige class was under the impression that maximized cures are better than empowered cures. Perhaps, the reasoning is due to the stability factor noted by Dr_Rictus. Let's look at Cure Serious Wounds at 15+ caster level....

That presents a strong argument that the designer of this PrC may not have understood the rules, but the rules themselves are made explicit both through the 3.5 PhB example and through the 3.0 FAQ example. Since nothing in that PrC contradicts the rules, I'm not sure how it presents an argument that the rules, as written, don't mean what the examples say they mean.

Daniel