What Empowered value gets multiplied?

[Nail]

No, nhl_1997 is correct, because the formula is not (normal result * 1.5), but (normal result * 1.5, round down), and you have to round down about half the time.

Take the simple example of a cure light wounds at caster level 5. The average result is 4.5+5, or 9.5. 1.5 times that is 14.25. However, an Empowered Cure Light Wounds at the same caster level has an equal chance of healing 9,10,12,13,15,16,18, or 19 hit points, which averages exactly 14.

Ack. Rounding. Crap.

Excellent catch.

 

[Nail]

BTW:

Lets say our Clr 5 has the Augment Healing feat (or whatever it's called) from Complete Divine.

Does his Empowered Cure Light Wounds now do:
(1d8 + 5 + 2) * 1.5

or is the feat added after the empowerment?

 

[youspoonybard]

Gogo! Empowered Fire Seeds (Holly Berry Bombs!)

(8d8+160) * 1.5...even with a save for half, that hurts.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Gogo! Empowered Fire Seeds (Holly Berry Bombs!)

(8d8+160) * 1.5...even with a save for half, that hurts.

Yeah, shocking grasp and produce flame are two other excellent candidates, since much of their damage at high caster levels comes from their constant terms. Similar benefit for ray of enfeeblement.

As I recall, anyway.

 

[nhl_1997]

Okay, I now agree that adjucating empower spell strictly based on the core rules, modifiers are added to the result before multiplying. My assumption that the magic missile example was simply incorrect came from my GM saying that empower spell was clarified in the 3.0 FAQ. Since I have no intentions of confirming or denying that statement and since others have stated on this thread that the FAQ did not clear it up, it's a bit presumtious of me to assume the example is mistaken.

For reasons stated above, I still feel that the multiplication should take place before adding on constant modifiers, but that would have to be a house rule.

Slightly off topic, going strictly by the example, an empowered magic missile with a caster level of 9+ maximizes at 35 damage rather than 37. The example essentially states (1d4+1)*1.5 per missile. This means that each missile is handled individually, and you potentially can lose a half-point of damage on each one.


Rebutting arguments made against my case....

Yes, improved toughness is better than toughness. Hence, the name includes improved. This has nothing to do with my argument.

Yes, widen spell also takes a slot 3 levels higher, and there are many instances where a different metamagic feat or none at all would be better than using widen spell. Similarly, repeat spell from Tome and Blood also takes a slot 3-levels higher. I'd certainly rather cast an extended greater magic weapon compared to a repeated one. Again, this has nothing to do with my argument.

Instead, part of my argument was based on the fact that both empower spell and maximize spell have the effect of increasing variable die rolls. Since maximize spell takes a slot 3-levels higher, empower takes a slot 2-levels higher, and both feats have the effect of increasing variable die rolls, empower spell should never, on average, be more effective than maximize spell. I'm not arguing that all +3 level metamagic feats should always be better than all +2 level metamagic feats.

By the way Dr_Rictus, thank you for defending my math skills

 

[Pielorinho]

It is a weird little quirk in the rules; I know that the wizard I'm getting ready to start playing will be taking empower spell, not maximize spell, as her fifth-level bonus feat. (She's gonna be a necromancer/dexterity specialist, for whom spells like Ray of Enfeeblement will rule the day).

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Heh. Just realized that by 8th level, an empowered ray of enfeeblement will on average paralyze a character with an average str (doing 11 points of str penalty on average), with no save. Nasty!
Daniel

 

[Scion]

Yes, improved toughness is better than toughness. Hence, the name includes improved. This has nothing to do with my argument.

Actually, it fits almost perfectly, if I do say so myself

Feat 1: +3 hp
Feat 2: +1hp/hd

Both are first tier feats, sometimes one is better and sometimes the other.

Works very closely in parallel with your original post. Sure, people have realized that one is very often better than the other, but it doesnt really matter. Feat 1 typically just isnt very good. In the same respect maximize is only good in certain fringe cases.

Given that empower is pretty well balanced where it is (I would say it is still a bit weak when comparing empowered spell vs a spell of the same level as the newly empowered spell). In that line making maximize better would be the way to go rather than making empower worse.

To relate to the example above, no need to make Feat 2 worse because Feat 1 has a lack of good associated with it

 

[rkanodia]

Heh. Just realized that by 8th level, an empowered ray of enfeeblement will on average paralyze a character with an average str (doing 11 points of str penalty on average), with no save. Nasty!
Daniel

Ray of enfeeblement includes a clause that prevents it from dropping a character below 1 strength, so it can't paralyze them. Although, with a 'heavy load' of 10 pounds, a character with 1 strength is unlikely to get very far in a hurry. Characters with higher strength are likely to be wearing heavier armor, so it should probably prove an effective spell even against fighters, until you start getting to be very high level.

 

[Pielorinho]

Curses, rkanodia. Curses.

Daniel
who guesses his new character will have to content herself with screwing over fighters instead.