What Empowered value gets multiplied?

[Hypersmurf]

Hmmm, can't follow you there. I think that you do give argument 3 the most regard not an equal regard. You neglect the full impact of argument 1.

Burning Hands. Deals fire damage.
Protection from Energy. Prevents fire damage.

Are you saying that by allowing Protection from Energy to prevent fire damage, I'm giving it 'more regard' and 'neglecting the full impact' of Burning Hands?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

I think the intent is that your strength cannot be reduced below 1 as a result of the Ray of Enfeeblement spell.


So if it reduces you to a 1 strength, and you take additional strength damage, the effect of the spell is reduced to keep you at a 1 Str. But the spell won't prevent you from going to a 0 Str if you take enough ability damage to do so, aside from the effects of the spell.

 

[rkanodia]

Of course, not that it says the target's strength can't drop below 1, not that it can't be below 1. So ray of enfeeblement will help you if you cast it before you get hit by the poison, but not if you cast it afterwards. Right, Hypersmurf?

Caliban, I believe that Hypersmurf is entirely aware that the wording of Ray of Enfeeblement wasn't intended to protect you from poison or Shadows. He's just the type of guy who loves nitpicking semantic errors.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, not that it says the target's strength can't drop below 1, not that it can't be below 1. So ray of enfeeblement will help you if you cast it before you get hit by the poison, but not if you cast it afterwards. Right, Hypersmurf?

Absolutely.

Just like Protection from Energy will help you if you cast it before you get hit by Burning Hands, but not if you cast it afterwards.

Isn't consistency nice?

-Hyp.

 

[rkanodia]

As long as we're on this ridiculous subject, let me mention that, if you insist on the most literal, least contextual interpretation of the rules, I agree that ray of enfeeblement would protect against helplessness brought on by strength drain, but only if it were cast before the strength drain occurred.

However, I don't think your analogy really fits. Burning hands has a duration of instantaneous; it deals damage and then it's over. That damage doesn't have any flag associating it with burning hands.

Ray of enfeeblement, on the other hand, has a duration of 1 minute and assigns a penalty to strength (it doesn't deal ability damage), and that penalty is most definitely associated with the spell - if the spell is dispelled, the penalty disappears, and if a second instance of ray of enfeeblement hits the target, only the better one is kept.

Protection from energy fails to protect you from a previously-cast burning hands because burning hands is already gone. Ray of enfeeblement fails to protect you from previously-inflicted strength damage because the old strength damage is grandfathered in by that word drop (as opposed to be). A better example would be globe of invulnerability and grease. Grease is a continuous effect, like ray of enfeeblement, and globe of invulnerability has a grandfather clause.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As worded, in fact, it prevents the subject's Strength dropping below 1.

Surrounded by an army of Shadows? Cast RoE on yourself... they can only kill you if your Str drops below 1, and as long as RoE is operating on you, as worded, that can't happen...

-Hyp.

Allow me to say that this is some of the finest rules lawyerin' I've seen in ages. Marvellous!

 

[rkanodia]

Allow me to say that this is some of the finest rules lawyerin' I've seen in ages. Marvellous!

A while back, a friend of mine (a wizard) was using this exact tactic, since the party went through several sessions where shadows - lots of shadows - were the primary enemies, and we had no cleric or paladin. At the same time, he decided that, since strength wouldn't be mattering anyway, he'd use polymorph to become a halfling and get a dex bonus and a size bonus to attacks, improving his ray spells. It worked well; however, even after we were done fighting shadows, he kept using the same tactic, polymorphing into a halfling for every encounter. I asked him why he couldn't stop, but the answer was obvious: it's hobbit-forming.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... but the answer was obvious: it's hobbit-forming.

Ugh.

[smashes glass in fireplace]

-Hyp.

 

[Scharlata]

I think the intent is that your strength cannot be reduced below 1 as a result of the Ray of Enfeeblement spell. [...]

Hmmm, where am I here? Is this kindergarten or aer we serious?

As long as we intentionally misread the feeble wording of a first level spell to ignore game mechanics of i.e. poison, written system-immanent correctly, I'm out of this bogus discussion...

... but please read my new thread considering feeble wording named "Hammer of Righteous Saving Throw?"

Kind regards

 

[Pielorinho]

Out of curiosity, Hypersmurf, if a player tried to use this trick in a game you ran, what would you do?

Daniel