What game Could "Be" D&D, Culturally?

[Thomas Shey]

If we step back in time to the late 70s absent D&D, I think Traveller would've had a good chance. Star Trek and Star Wars were both wildly popular at the time, as were other space-faring science fiction novels and television series. Something like Traveller seems like a natural fit.

Well, as I mentioned, Traveller does have some things working against it; it was very conservative in many ways looking more like a limited subset of lit-SF than much of the media SF that was getting popular. But that showed Mark Miller's particular biases, and something similar with a more open-ended approach should have been viable; certainly the wargamers and fans who gave the game most of its initial impetus were as much or more into SF than fantasy at the time.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not conveniently - just flat out forgot!

But it changes nothing about what I posted.

The Star Trek IP has never really come to anything in RPG land. And not for lack of trying.

I'm sure Modiphus would be surprised to hear that.

But again, if you go by that kind of standards, few licensed products ever have; that tends to show more about the expectations of the licensors than anything else.

And I'll note, again, that one of the most successful games outside the D&D sphere for many years was the WEG Star Wars RPG.

 

[dragoner]

Well, as I mentioned, Traveller does have some things working against it; it was very conservative in many ways looking more like a limited subset of lit-SF than much of the media SF that was getting popular. But that showed Mark Miller's particular biases, and something similar with a more open-ended approach should have been viable; certainly the wargamers and fans who gave the game most of its initial impetus were as much or more into SF than fantasy at the time.

Absent D&D there might be no Traveller, as it was reported they made it after playing D&D.

 

[Jaeger]

I'm sure Modiphus would be surprised to hear that.

They'll figure it out for themselves.

But again, if you go by that kind of standards, few licensed products ever have; that tends to show more about the expectations of the licensors than anything else.

Truth.

Few licensed products do really well in RPG land over the long haul.

There are basically three licensed IP that consistently do well almost regardless of system, and actually get played on a relatively wide scale: The Lord of the Rings, Conan, And Star Wars.

People love themselves to Roleplay in those worlds.

Everything else have been also-rans.

And I'll note, again, that one of the most successful games outside the D&D sphere for many years was the WEG Star Wars RPG.

Yes. Vampire also had its day on the sun. And Traveller is no Star Wars.

If TSR went bankrupt in 2000, assuming WEG survived the shoe business, and still held the Star Wars license...

WEG would have been best served by taking that Star Wars rpg money and hiring some ex-TSR employees to create a "D&D adjacent" setting that they could adapt to a new RPG "d20 system" using the D&D polyhedral dice...

Hire the still living Gary Gygax, and David Arneson as a consultants so that you could put their names on the cover: release your new fantasy RPG, and profit.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

A scifi game would have still never come out on top. Add to the fantasy and/or medieval flavor that has always been preferred with the SCA and the groups that grew out from them that wanted fantasy in their medieval recreations, and then the LARP world as well. People fantasy LARP and horror LARP, not scifi LARP. With the exception of the Star Fleet LARPing, and if you call them LARPers to their faces, they will pull their toy phasers out or sic their tribbles on you.

But back on the topic, I think with less complexity and better marketing, the percentile-based systems could have taken off and knocked the D&D system down. Runequest in 1978. BRP, the core system from Runequest in 1980, Call of Cthulhu, using the BRP system, in 1981, Rolemaster and Middle Earth Role Playing in 1982, and others. D100 systems were on the rise at the start of the 80's and then what happened? Sure, CoC is still quite popular, the rest just plateaued or sank. Too complex for the early gaming world already used to AD&D.

 

[Jaeger]

But back on the topic, I think with less complexity and better marketing, the percentile-based systems could have taken off and knocked the D&D system down. Runequest in 1978. BRP, the core system from Runequest in 1980, Call of Cthulhu, using the BRP system, in 1981

Well, that is a big what-if...

I'm inclined to believe that D&D just had too much headway by then.

And RQ came out with 2 strikes against it right away.

First: While the role under d100 die mechanic may have been more intuitive. RQ then added a lot of complication on top of it that negated any effect it may have had with new players.

Second: Gorlantha. No further explanation necessary...

TSR was pretty good about hitting the supplement treadmill early on. And Chaosium would have had to keep up.

If Chaosium had released something more along the lines of Magic world in '78, with a proper medieval tolkienesque setting, used spent XP instead of skill rolls' for advancement, and kept within shouting distance of D&D with adventures... Things could have gotten very interesting.

But Chaosium was a Gorlantha vehicle from the start, so the value of such a move is really only visible in hindsight...

in 1981, Rolemaster and Middle Earth Role Playing in 1982, and others. D100 systems were on the rise at the start of the 80's and then what happened? Sure, CoC is still quite popular, the rest just plateaued or sank. Too complex for the early gaming world already used to AD&D.

All of those early games were a reaction trying to address what they perceived as D&D's shortcomings.

The mistake that many of them made was that they were so focused on "Fixing" D&D, that they often neglected to emulate the things that D&D got right.

IMHO it is no accident that it is the lighter rules version of d100 - CoC, that has had the longest legs...

 

[Thomas Shey]

Absent D&D there might be no Traveller, as it was reported they made it after playing D&D.

I earlier acknowledged the issue of making the jump to the concept of an RPG in the first place. If you don't assume that, the answer to the question is intrinsically "nothing". The useful question is, if someone does make that jump, what can take off?

(Of course you can always assume anything would if it was a genuine RPG, but that's as big a jump as assuming nothing could. I'm trying to follow a middle path of assuming nothing about D&D style fantasy was the only option, but not necessarily assuming absolutely anything would grab everyone. As an example, I suspect it was too early for a superhero game to do it).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes. Vampire also had its day on the sun. And Traveller is no Star Wars.

I believe I've indicated the limiting factor with Traveler in the past in this thread (I noted that something closer to the FGU Space Opera would be a better shot if it had a more accessible system). I'm suggesting it might have gotten enough of a start (after all, it was at least modestly successful) to spread into a broader approach to SF if it was working in an empty field.

If TSR went bankrupt in 2000, assuming WEG survived the shoe business, and still held the Star Wars license...

WEG would have been best served by taking that Star Wars rpg money and hiring some ex-TSR employees to create a "D&D adjacent" setting that they could adapt to a new RPG "d20 system" using the D&D polyhedral dice...

This assumes something holy about a D20 resolution that was going to be superior to the D6 die pool they already had. Unless your premise is they were going to specifically be doing a Paizo, I don't see that as following.

 

[Thomas Shey]

A scifi game would have still never come out on top.

Again , it was popular enough with the same groups that gave D&D its strong start, so I think that's a strong assertion without any obvious cause.

 

[dragoner]

I earlier acknowledged the issue of making the jump to the concept of an RPG in the first place. If you don't assume that, the answer to the question is intrinsically "nothing". The useful question is, if someone does make that jump, what can take off?

(Of course you can always assume anything would if it was a genuine RPG, but that's as big a jump as assuming nothing could. I'm trying to follow a middle path of assuming nothing about D&D style fantasy was the only option, but not necessarily assuming absolutely anything would grab everyone. As an example, I suspect it was too early for a superhero game to do it).

Maybe En Garde! there it is listed as an early competitor, though I think that D&D hit at a time when the pump was primed for it, with Tolkien, and other sort of pseudo-nature fantasy stuff of the 70's.