D&D 5E (2014) What happened to the Playtest lower magic prices?

[Dausuul]

I think the DMG values are much better than the playtest ones. PCs are not supposed to be running around creating magic items all over the place. The standard values given in the DMG make it possible to allow some PC item creation, while still ensuring that Rare items take a substantial investment, Very Rare items require a huge pile of money and years of downtime, and Legendary items are beyond the PCs' resources unless they can find a way to speed up the process. They also explain why there are so few Very Rare and Legendary items floating around.

DMs are always free to revise the cost downward, or allow the party to reduce the creation time and/or cost by going on a quest.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm a bit bummed about the magic item chart and rules on page 129 of the DMG.

As a rough rule of thumb (YMMV), a GP is worth about $100.

So the chart becomes:

Common: $10,000 and 4 days to craft, minimum 3rd level
Uncommon: $50,000 and 20 days to craft, minimum 3rd level
Rare: $500,000 and 7 months to craft, minimum 6th level
Very Rare: $5,000,000 and 5.5 years to craft, minimum 11th level
Legendary: $50,000,000 and 55 years to craft, minimum 17th level

These times assume that the crafter is not stopping. If he takes breaks, it takes longer. And yes, I realize that multiple crafters can work together, but that is white noise. If any of them quit (die, whatever), the item can no longer be made (theoretically) and even 5 crafters are not going to want to spend 11 years each making a legendary item.

This has no bearing on the game whatsoever. The game is about the PCs. If the PCs cannot craft items, this is somewhat unnecessary information for the DM. If the PCs can craft items, then the cost are so high and timeframes so long that they will almost never be used in an actual game.

I actually like the original playtest values:

Common, 2+, 50–100 gp
Uncommon, 3+, 100–500 gp
Rare, 5+, 500–2,000 gp
Very rare, 7+, 2,000–5,000 gp
Legendary, 9+, 5,000–10,000 gp

that @CapnZapp listed. Even with the same 25 GP per day, this works out to:

Common: $5000 to $10,000 and 2 to 4 days to craft
Uncommon: $10,000 to $50,000 and 4 to 20 days to craft
Rare: $50,000 to $200,000 and 20 to 80 days to craft
Very Rare: $200,000 to $500,000 and 80 to 200 days to craft
Legendary: $500,000 to $1,000,000 and 200 to 400 days to craft

Now, someone might say that if legendary items only take a year to craft, there would be a bunch of them. Well, yes and no. They still require at least a half million dollars (i.e. 5,000 GP) to create and they still require (with the revised level minimum) 17th level PCs/NPCs (who often have better things to do) to do so.

Also, there is the problem of consumable items which the DMG does not really discuss. An Arrow of Slaying in the current model costs 50,000 GP ($5,000,000 ) and 5.5 years to craft. Theoretically. Same for a +3 arrow (or maybe you can create 20 of them for that cost/time, but the rules are unclear).

The cost / time for consumable items should be much lower, but the PHB already establishes a Potion of Healing at 50 GP (which if you think about it, $5000 is REALLY prohibitively expensive).


The rules here are just very weak, almost unusable, and beg to be houseruled.

A simple houserule is to make the lower cost the one for the consumables (and change the equation for it) and make the higher cost the one for most items. A group of consumables (like 20 +3 arrows) would cost the higher cost and time:

Common, 3+, 50 (2 days), 100 gp (4 days)
Uncommon, 3+, 150 (6 days), 500 gp (20 days)
Rare, 6+, 350 (2 weeks), 2,000 gp (80 days)
Very rare, 11+, 750 (1 month), 5,000 gp (~7 months)
Legendary, 17+, 1500 (2 months), 10,000 gp (~14 months)

Weren't those prices based on the use of the whole game using a silver standard? A single GP is nowhere near worth $100.00 in the current published rules. $500.00 for an ordinary mace? I don't think so.

So, when gold is rarer and much more valuable then the lower GP values make sense. When the GP is the standard currency, not so much.

 

[Cybit]

I'm a bit bummed about the magic item chart and rules on page 129 of the DMG.

As a rough rule of thumb (YMMV), a GP is worth about $100.

So the chart becomes:

Common: $10,000 and 4 days to craft, minimum 3rd level
Uncommon: $50,000 and 20 days to craft, minimum 3rd level
Rare: $500,000 and 7 months to craft, minimum 6th level
Very Rare: $5,000,000 and 5.5 years to craft, minimum 11th level
Legendary: $50,000,000 and 55 years to craft, minimum 17th level

These times assume that the crafter is not stopping. If he takes breaks, it takes longer. And yes, I realize that multiple crafters can work together, but that is white noise. If any of them quit (die, whatever), the item can no longer be made (theoretically) and even 5 crafters are not going to want to spend 11 years each making a legendary item.

This has no bearing on the game whatsoever. The game is about the PCs. If the PCs cannot craft items, this is somewhat unnecessary information for the DM. If the PCs can craft items, then the cost are so high and timeframes so long that they will almost never be used in an actual game.

I actually like the original playtest values:

Common, 2+, 50–100 gp
Uncommon, 3+, 100–500 gp
Rare, 5+, 500–2,000 gp
Very rare, 7+, 2,000–5,000 gp
Legendary, 9+, 5,000–10,000 gp

that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] listed. Even with the same 25 GP per day, this works out to:

Common: $5000 to $10,000 and 2 to 4 days to craft
Uncommon: $10,000 to $50,000 and 4 to 20 days to craft
Rare: $50,000 to $200,000 and 20 to 80 days to craft
Very Rare: $200,000 to $500,000 and 80 to 200 days to craft
Legendary: $500,000 to $1,000,000 and 200 to 400 days to craft

Now, someone might say that if legendary items only take a year to craft, there would be a bunch of them. Well, yes and no. They still require at least a half million dollars (i.e. 5,000 GP) to create and they still require (with the revised level minimum) 17th level PCs/NPCs (who often have better things to do) to do so.

Also, there is the problem of consumable items which the DMG does not really discuss. An Arrow of Slaying in the current model costs 50,000 GP ($5,000,000 ) and 5.5 years to craft. Theoretically. Same for a +3 arrow (or maybe you can create 20 of them for that cost/time, but the rules are unclear).

The cost / time for consumable items should be much lower, but the PHB already establishes a Potion of Healing at 50 GP (which if you think about it, $5000 is REALLY prohibitively expensive).


The rules here are just very weak, almost unusable, and beg to be houseruled.

A simple houserule is to make the lower cost the one for the consumables (and change the equation for it) and make the higher cost the one for most items. A group of consumables (like 20 +3 arrows) would cost the higher cost and time:

Common, 3+, 50 (2 days), 100 gp (4 days)
Uncommon, 3+, 150 (6 days), 500 gp (20 days)
Rare, 6+, 350 (2 weeks), 2,000 gp (80 days)
Very rare, 11+, 750 (1 month), 5,000 gp (~7 months)
Legendary, 17+, 1500 (2 months), 10,000 gp (~14 months)

If you don't use the DMG prices - be warned; your players will be sitting on multiple legendaries quickly due to the DMG loot tables. I believe it was based on a silver standard at one point, and then moved up to a gold standard. I suspect a large part of the reason is based around ease of compatibility for older modules & previous work. Switching to gold standard lets you move in many 1E/2E adventures without any real conversion (just use the 5E versions of the monsters from the MM in place of the 1E/2E monster).

 

[KarinsDad]

Weren't those prices based on the use of the whole game using a silver standard? A single GP is nowhere near worth $100.00 in the current published rules. $500.00 for an ordinary mace? I don't think so.

So, when gold is rarer and much more valuable then the lower GP values make sense. When the GP is the standard currency, not so much.

Nowhere near?

It depends on your POV.

How much does a gun cost in the modern world? $500. The cost of a mace in the game.

How much does a horse cost? Transportation. 50 GP to 400 GP, $5000 to $40,000, the cost of a car in the real world.

A backpack? 2 GP = $200, similar to the real world.

A room for the night? 5 SP modest ($50, Motel 6) to 2 GP wealthy ($200, luxury hotel).

A meal? 3 SP modest ($30 a day) to 8 SP wealthy ($80 a day)

A lot of the items in the book correspond fairly closely at a $100 per GP rate. Perfect? No. There are always exceptions and the real world has mass production.

But the basic "How long can I have a roof over my head, pay taxes, have some minor entertainment and eat meals?". 1 GP = $100 fits that really close.

Lifestyle expenses per day:

Squalid: 1 SP: $10
Poor: 2 SP: $20
Modest: 1 GP: $100. How many people make (in the US) about $35,000 a year and that's their living expenses (taxes, food, housing, clothes, etc.)? Quite a few.
Comfortable: 2 GP: $200, $70,000 a year in the real world.


This really is almost spot on. Close enough for when a DM says: "The Earl offers you $50 GP each to go clear out the bandits.", the players can rough rule of thumb that at $5000 each. Enough to live for a month or so.

The reason for the conversion is that $750 GP really doesn't mean anything to people. It's a number and not necessarily a large one. $75,000. That's a number people understand from their own lives.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the DMG values are much better than the playtest ones. PCs are not supposed to be running around creating magic items all over the place. The standard values given in the DMG make it possible to allow some PC item creation, while still ensuring that Rare items take a substantial investment, Very Rare items require a huge pile of money and years of downtime, and Legendary items are beyond the PCs' resources unless they can find a way to speed up the process. They also explain why there are so few Very Rare and Legendary items floating around.

So does the fact that one has to be 11th level or 17th level to craft those very rare and legendary items.

But, it's implausible that NPCs can make magic items if it is prohibitively expensive in time and money for the PCs. Where did the NPCs get the time and money to create these items if it is so darn difficult?

 

[Dausuul]

So does the fact that one has to be 11th level or 17th level to craft those very rare and legendary items.

But, it's implausible that NPCs can make magic items if it is prohibitively expensive in time and money for the PCs. Where did the NPCs get the time and money to create these items if it is so darn difficult?

The reason it's prohibitive for PCs is that a decades-long process is beyond the scope of most campaigns. You can start making a legendary item, you just won't finish before the campaign ends. NPCs don't have that issue.

 

[KarinsDad]

The reason it's prohibitive for PCs is that a decades-long process is beyond the scope of most campaigns. You can start making a legendary item, you just won't finish before the campaign ends. NPCs don't have that issue.

The game is played by players. PCs are more important (IMO) than the NPCs.

Sorry, one can try to rationalize it, but it still doesn't make real sense.

Have you read some of the Very Rare items? The Rod of Alertness. Who in their right mind would spend $5,000,000 and 5.5 (nearly non-stop) years creating that? It's nonsensical.


As a DM, I have no problem with a 17th level PC spending 6 months making a legendary item. It costs a ton of money, so the time does not need to be 55 (can't be done in the game) years (who came up with that stupid idea?).

 

[keterys]

While I'm not convinced that items tend to float in the right rarity buckets*, I am okay with the concept that very rare and legendary items are rarely if ever crafted by mortals. Perhaps it came that way via a god or fey power, or only became so after it was used in a particular fashion. I'm all for items that upgrade over time - like the uncommon sword that becomes rare after being used to defeat the horrible dragon.

Oh, and just for scale comparison, the US can spend millions on consumable weaponry, hundreds of millions of dollars on a plane, billions on a ship. $5 million for a legendary item that will last a country forever might be worth it, depending on the item.

* If you can't imagine someone spending that much money and time for it, that may be a problem with the item, not the cost for the generic rarity.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If you can't imagine someone spending that much money and time for it, that may be a problem with the item, not the cost for the generic rarity.

Sovereign Glue and Universal Solvent are the poster children for this problem. One-shot legendary items with exorbitant cost and dubious utility. If they were Common you might consider making some occasionally.

ObTropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdamSmithHatesYourGuts

 

[abirdcall]

I think the key, as it is with most problems people have with 5e, is to get away from 3.x thinking. In 3.x magic items are manufactured regularly and there are magic shops.

This is not true in 5e.

I think of most magic items as having a special story. I don't need to worry about who would spend the time and gold making most of the items. I think most of the items came about through some sort of unique process.

5e works a lot better and makes a lot more sense when you stop trying to fit it into 3.x' philosophy and style.