What happens to all that positive energy?

[Celebrim]

Welllll, just how much of D&D's explicit and implied weirdness you have to accept is pretty optional.

Certainly. I'm not even claiming my description is the only one possible. But I am claiming that if you want to do something more than handwave away the explicit and implied weirdness, you end up with a world very much different than ours.

I think it's pretty fair and reasonable to say that things like normal thermodynamics and such hold true until magic or extraplanar influences intervene.

I think it is fair and reasonable to say that normal thermodynamics hold true within the casual observation of players, because otherwise the game universe requires a super-genious to imagine and serious time commitment to even understand.

Magic pretty much has to be a separate system from natural law, or else things like anti-magic fields would do quite a lot more than suppressing spellcasters.

I don't think that that is true. The description of the spell reads:

The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned.

To which I could add that 'magical beasts' which presumably sustain themselves in some fashion by an infusion of magic, don't explicitly get sick, die, or are otherwise harmed by being in an anti-magic field. It's pretty clear that whatever anti-magic shell does, it doesn't stop everything magical from occuring in its confines. It only stops things that depend on certain kinds of magic, most usually the simple mortally understandable stuff that we call 'spells' and similar limited effects. Artifacts, dieties, and even some sorts of potent long duration mortal magic (constructs) aren't effected, presumably because they are either too powerful for a mortal spell to contain or fundamentally a different sort of magic than which is depressed by the antimagic shield. We can see that many magical beings aren't effected, but the spells which summoned or conjured them are.

I don't think we have to go so far as to say that because D&D defines fire as an "element", we have to accept a world where there are such things as "fire atoms".

No, we don't. But then, if we choose not to accept that, we have to accept that we have no idea what is meant by the word 'element'. If in fact, prime objects aren't composed of an amalgamation of the things in D&D called 'elements', then we've no idea why they are called 'elements' or why they should have any particular influence or relationship to the prime. In that case, the universe would be far more interesting with Helium, Mercury, and Sodium elemental planes, because at least we could say something about them.

Fire is still a chemical reaction.

If you like. But this answer doesn't explain anything. In fact, this answer gets you further away from an answer than when you started. Because if fire is a chemical reaction and a very different sort of thing than 'elemental fire', why would something like 'elemental fire' exist, why would it have commerse with the universe it doesn't exist in, and how did the prime universe come to be so different from the rest of reality?

 

[werk]

With all the healing spells being used in a typical setting, the amount of positive energy being drawn into that plane must be enormous. Since energy can't be destroyed, what happens to it?

My off-hand response would be "Entropy, berk, entropy." Basically, the verse is decaying and being destroyed continually forever, all that positive energy does is prolong the inevitable.

 

[Shemeska]

Good points, here. If I recall--and maybe this is just earlier editions--it's been stated explicitly in the rules that negative energy is not inherently "evil", and positive energy is not inherently "good". Exposure to too much positive will kill a prime material inhabitant just as fast as negative will.

Not just older editions, but in 3.x as well. Both the Positive and Negative Energy planes are neutral, and both planes are among the most hostile in the multiverse. The positive energy plane is more or less like the heart of a star, and the negative energy plane is an empty void of ever-devouring entropy: both will happily obliterate anyone who endures unprotected exposure to either.

And technically the positive energy plane is more sterile than the negative energy plane is. You're more likely to find something living (in the general sense of the term) in - than in +.

Mortal creatures just like positive better because their kind of lifeforce happens to be based on it (or something like that), so it's healthy for them in small doses.

Precisely. Alignment has nothing to do with either plane or their energy, though one may be perverted to more 'evil' use just because most mortals are empowered by positive as opposed to negative energy. If most mortal life was empowered by negative energy, some people would be claiming that positive energy was evil and negative energy was good just based on which one was more capable of harming them.

It's like a being made of ice claiming that fire is evil and amoral because fire can only harm it, and in the ice creature's worldview fire is unnatural and wrong, but that doesn't make elemental fire evil in any objective sense in the multiverse at large. None of the elements or energies have any link to alignment, and claims of good or evil about them are entirely subjective. Thankfully 3.x has retained this neutrality of the energy types.

 

[GreatLemur]

I don't think that that is true. The description of the spell reads:

Ah, okay, point taken. But I would still say that the existence of things like anti-magic and wild magic effects, detect magic spells, and the like do suggest--if not prove--that magic is a distinct system, rather than the basis of all physics in the game.

No, we don't. But then, if we choose not to accept that, we have to accept that we have no idea what is meant by the word 'element'.

Call it a band on the spectrum of magical effects and concepts, the same way "red" is just a partuclar section of the visual spectrum of light. Air, water, fire, and earth are most likely recognized as "elements" because of the inner planes. The presence of an infinite extraplanar source of fire strikes me as reason enough for wizards to be throwing around fireballs more often than, say, trapping their enemies in crushing gravity wells, or rotting the flesh off their bones. Magic makes just about anything possible, but the existence of certain available resources makes certain things easier.

I don't think the existence of hydrogen atoms on the prime material suggests that there ought to be an elemental plane of hydrogen any more than the existence of salamanders indicates an elemental plane of salamanders.

But this answer doesn't explain anything. In fact, this answer gets you further away from an answer than when you started. Because if fire is a chemical reaction and a very different sort of thing than 'elemental fire', why would something like 'elemental fire' exist, why would it have commerse with the universe it doesn't exist in, and how did the prime universe come to be so different from the rest of reality?

I wouldn't call the inner planes "the rest of reality". Compared to the prime material and the outer planes, they're definitely the odd ones out. And, I think it's important to note, I'm not actually trying to explain anything, just to avoid having to invent--or accept--a whole magic-based system of whimsical physics to run the multiverse on. I'm quite content to say that the "regular" universe just works the way ours does, plus the addition of all this other stuff that runs on pseudoscience and hand-waving. It strikes me as a better solution than having to worry about whether the natural laws that I'm used to apply in a given situation, because it really all runs on four elements and five very silly energies.

 

[Celebrim]

Ah, okay, point taken. But I would still say that the existence of things like anti-magic and wild magic effects, detect magic spells, and the like do suggest--if not prove--that magic is a distinct system, rather than the basis of all physics in the game.

Ok, you can say whatever you want. But I would say that the very fact that thaumaturgy is possible and indeed readily accessible in the D&D universe suggests - if not proves - that the fundamental nature of reality is quite different than what we observe.

Call it a band on the spectrum of magical effects and concepts, the same way "red" is just a partuclar section of the visual spectrum of light.

This answer is more or less identical to the claim that they are called elements because they are fundamental particles.

Air, water, fire, and earth are most likely recognized as "elements" because of the inner planes.

Circular. The inner planes exist because air, water, fire, and earth are elements. If they weren't elements, they wouldn't be inner planes.

The presence of an infinite extraplanar source of fire strikes me as reason enough for wizards to be throwing around fireballs more often than, say, trapping their enemies in crushing gravity wells, or rotting the flesh off their bones.

Indeed. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Magic makes just about anything possible, but the existence of certain available resources makes certain things easier.

Well, yes. But that doesn't differentiate your thesis from mine.

I don't think the existence of hydrogen atoms on the prime material suggests that there ought to be an elemental plane of hydrogen any more than the existence of salamanders indicates an elemental plane of salamanders.[/qutoe]

There is a fundamental problem with that analogy. The existance of a hydrogen atom suggests that it is an element. The existance of a salamander doesn't suggest that it is an element. If you inspected a salamander though and discovered it was made entirely of one thing, salamander atoms, then you'd expect there to be an elemental plane of salamander somewhere if in fact you knew that there was an elemental plane of fire.

I wouldn't call the inner planes "the rest of reality". Compared to the prime material and the outer planes, they're definitely the odd ones out.

No, the outer planes are even wierder than the elemental planes. The outer planes are made of the same stuff that thought is made up. The outer planes are made of incarnated ideas. Now, it wouldn't be too surprising that the outer planes were made of something not found in the inner planes (thats why they are 'outer' and not 'inner', and classical thought claimed that the 'heavens' were made of a very different class of substance as the rest of reality), but it would be very suprising if the prime wasn't made up of substantially the things that made up the rest of the inner planes.

And, I think it's important to note, I'm not actually trying to explain anything...

No, that's exactly what I was noting. It's worth noting though that things like the Inner Planes are very much an attempt to explain things, and that you wouldn't even talk about Elemental planes if you weren't attempting to explain things. The multiverse is a whimsical explanation (or at least it is now that we have another explanation for reality and don't need a multiverse to explain this one in the same fashion that Pratchett's Diskworld is a whimsical explanation now that it isn't a serious one). Nonetheless it would be very strange if the multiverse as an explanation wasn't internally consist however whimsical it was.

just to avoid having to invent--or accept--a whole magic-based system of whimsical physics to run the multiverse on. I'm quite content to say that the "regular" universe just works the way ours does, plus the addition of all this other stuff that runs on pseudoscience and hand-waving. It strikes me as a better solution than having to worry about whether the natural laws that I'm used to apply in a given situation, because it really all runs on four elements and five very silly energies.

If that's how you feel, it would be better to do away with the classical D&D multiverse entirely. There is nothing wrong with that, and quite a few world builders, unhappy with the wierdness that comes from adopting something like the multiverse or a disk rotating on the back of four elephants being carried on a giant turtle, do exactly that.

 

[jgbrowning]

Hey...that's a great campaign plot, Joe....

Yah, would be a great way to have good vrs. good conflict where both sides of the argument are right.

joe b.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I saw one. On t.v. crying.

He got busted.

 

[Nyeshet]

All the rules of physics don't apply in a fantasy world, especially at this level of subtlety. In fact, I'd recommend that anything that isn't directly noticeable to an average person NOT follow our physics.

An interesting idea, limiting physics in a Fantasy setting to mere Classical Mechanics (or perhaps even Aristolean Mechanics, such as it was?).

 

[The Edge]

A man called bruce was once exposed to a positive energy reactor. He went all big and green and found a strong desire to smash things. His D&D size category is large, but he insists on Hulk.

 

[Arkhandus]

I don't think we have to go so far as to say that because D&D defines fire as an "element", we have to accept a world where there are such things as "fire atoms". Fire is still a chemical reaction. It's just that it's also something with a distinct and fundamental identity in magical systems and planar cosmology. "Elemental" fire might even be somewhat different from natural (or prime material) fire, an idea which I believe has some precedent in classical alchemy.

Similarly, when the PHB calls acid a type of "energy", all they're really saying is that chemical burns are a damage type specifically covered by the game's rules something different from regular physical damage. We don't have to look at their choice of terminology and infer that acid is part of some fantasy electromagnetic spectrum.

I beg to differ. Acid in D&D is a form of energy, not a mere chemical reaction. It is the Earth element's equivalent of heat, cold, or electrical charge. Acid is energized elemental Earth, or something similar in its relation to the Earth element of D&D. Acid can damage some things that are otherwise immune to physical or nonmagical damage. Fire is not a chemical reaction in D&D, either, it's a fundamental energy form that is part of the multiverse's basic composition, part of its very nature. D&D needs no electromagnetic spectrum; energy forms in D&D are not confined to one-dimensional and cosmically-ignorant mortal ideas of how the multiverse works, and what it's made of.

Things don't burn because of chemical reactions in D&D; they probably burn because the contact of one Fire-dominant mass or energy force with another mass or energy force that is either Fire-dominant or Fire-vulnerable triggers a combination of Fire essence that flares into a pure and destructive Fire manifestation. Or something else that has only a marginal similarity to real-world physics, and is more the work of Nature's elemental forces and primal laws on how each element interacts with each other element, based on various factors in Nature's grand design. Or whatever. But real-world physics in D&D would only likely seem to work, and only in some obvious and simple ways, by coincidence (read: for the sole purpose of suspension of disbelief); Gravity in D&D may really just be a matter of elemental Earth attracting elemental Earth, or elemental Air opposing all that is not elemental Air. Or whatever.