What happens when you Extend Spell on Heat Metal?

[Crothian]

Or another example of the fact that you can never cover as many situations in playtesting and game-creation as a huge player-base of tens of thousands of players will discover?

It's been almost 5 years since people have asked this question and to my knowledge we haven't gotten an answer. I agree that snot everything can be covered by the rules, but once the questions start coming in I think I can expect answers. Especially 5 years later.

 

[Shadowdweller]

In case anyone cares:

Rules questions aside, within the game logic for the spell (it takes time for the metal to heat up, and it stays hot for the duration) I'd have to judge it (if I were DM) as giving another 7 rounds of 2d4 damage. Nasty net damage this way, but since it's circumstantial, delayed, and preventable...not UTTERLY broken.

I've dealt with Extended Creeping Cold as DM before. I treated it as normal creeping cold with double-rounds for each damage type...thus not exceeding the actual damage done per round of the original. Continuing the cumulative progression is, I think, unbalanced.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Ack...dumb post from me at the beginning. No clue why I forgot about Heat Metal's cooldown period. Thats what I get for posting after 14 hours straight at work...

...*skimpers down the street quietly*...

 

[Jdvn1]

Creeping cold, from complete I don´t remember.

Divine. There's also Greater.

 

[Scharlata]

I understand it would last 14 rounds (instead of 7), but how is the damage per round now calculated?

Hi!

Maybe, this is of help.

Q:The vigor series of spells (found in Complete Divine)
raise an interesting question. Does the built-in maximum
duration of each spell limitation override the effect of the
Extend Spell feat?
A:Yes. Extend Spell still increases the spell’s duration, but
only up to a maximum of the spell’s listed maximum duration.
Use either the normal maximum duration or the doubled
duration, whichever is less. If a 7th-level druid used Extend
Spell on her vigor spell, the duration could not increase beyond
25 rounds.

Could it be possible that Extend Spell can't extend those kind of spells?

Kind regards

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hi!

Maybe, this is of help.



Could it be possible that Extend Spell can't extend those kind of spells?

Kind regards

I think what they actually meant for that was
"Crud. The spell's broke. And no, we don't know how to fix it without totally losing the game's consistency".

I think the big thing is that the entire idea of metamagics, while quite neat, is inherently flawed. Without a hard baseline for spell abilities, their effects are totally unforeseeable. Thus, it's pretty common to come up with an example of them that breaks the game.

Personally, I think that a good rule of thumb for extend is probably "the spells weakest effect is applied for any extra time".

This is primarily because spells which take a few rounds to reach full potency are generally more powerful in their most potent form than a spell that lasts a while at a constant level. Just compare melf's acid arrow to heat metal for instance.

 

[KarinsDad]

I like the idea of:

Round 1 and 14: Warm
Round 2 and 13: Hot
Round 3 to 12: Seering

It goes from 8D4 (assuming it is not avoided or stopped) to 22D4. Granted, this nearly triples the damage, but to me, the spell heats up the metal and then cools it off. Extended, it should do something similar.

22D4 is 55 points of damage, but for a 3rd level equivalent spell that can be stopped in a wide variety of ways, that is potent, but not overkill (Extend should at least make it 16D4, double duration, double damage, just like Extend Melf's Acid Arrow). Fireball at 5th level can do more than that and a lot faster too, just not to one opponent.

Jumping into water will halve the damage. Except for half and full plate, most armor can be removed in 10 rounds (5 rounds if a friend is willing to burn himself with you). Resist Elements (or Protection From Elements) Fire and Chill Metal will neutralize it. Even Dispel Magic might work. Or, just a boatload of various Cure Wounds spells.

Somewhere around round 6 or 7, PCs would start going nuts if an NPC did this.


If this seems too potent, another possibility is:

1 Warm None
2 Hot 1d4 points
3–5 Searing 2d4 points
6 Hot 1d4 points
7 Warm None
8 Warm None
9 Hot 1d4 points
10–12 Searing 2d4 points
13 Hot 1d4 points
14 Warm None

The interesting thing about this is that the enemy sighs relieve and then it starts up all over again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmm.

The base spell does 2 rounds of warm, 2 rounds of hot, and three rounds of searing.

So an Extended version might be expected to deal 4 rounds of warm, 4 rounds of hot, and six rounds of searing.

But the double-cycle variant seems weird, and the double-each-phase has the slow start-up disadvantage.

So what if we had the same start-up - r1 warm, r2 hot, r3 searing... and then put the leftover warm and hot rounds at the end?

So:

1 Warm
2 Hot
3 Searing
4 Searing
5 Searing
6 Searing
7 Searing
8 Searing
9 Hot
10 Hot
11 Hot
12 Warm
13 Warm
14 Warm

Does exactly twice the expected damage, lasts exactly twice as long, but doesn't get to full potency any slower...

-Hyp.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Personally, I think that a good rule of thumb for extend is probably "the spells weakest effect is applied for any extra time".

This is primarily because spells which take a few rounds to reach full potency are generally more powerful in their most potent form than a spell that lasts a while at a constant level. Just compare melf's acid arrow to heat metal for instance.

I have to disagree with this on both an individual and expansive level. Let's compare: Heat Metal has a delayed effect, has a much smaller range, is subject to spell resistance, is completely negated by a successful save, and on top of that is only effective at dealing damage against very specific opponents (i.e. those wearing metal armor). This are HUGE minuses.

What other spells are we talking about? Creeping cold? Storm of Vengeance? These STILL aren't curve-breakers when compared to their more constant cousins.

I think the big thing is that the entire idea of metamagics, while quite neat, is inherently flawed. Without a hard baseline for spell abilities, their effects are totally unforeseeable. Thus, it's pretty common to come up with an example of them that breaks the game.

Such as? Metamagic feats do not change the essential nature of spells, do not add obscene amounts of complication. They can compound the effects of an existing spell...increasing effects so it's more noticable. IMO it's almost always the spell itself that is to blame, not the metamagic.

EDIT: Note, this last refers to the core metamagic system and feats. I don't vouch for poorly playtested examples used in supplements, such as 3.0 persistant spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

So:

1 Warm
2 Hot
3 Searing
4 Searing
5 Searing
6 Searing
7 Searing
8 Searing
9 Hot
10 Hot
11 Hot
12 Warm
13 Warm
14 Warm

Does exactly twice the expected damage, lasts exactly twice as long, but doesn't get to full potency any slower...

Unfortunately, it does not allow the character to remove his armor to avoid any significant portion of the damage either since it front loads the damage. By the time he gets his armor off, he won't be taking any more damage (or he may be taking 1D4 less).

At least the double-cycle variant might stop as much as 5D4 of it (assuming the target or a friend made a Spellcraft roll to know it was an Extended version).