What happens when you get rid of alignment?

[Guilt Puppy]

I'm wondering if anyone's tried dumping the alignment system (in some manner), what mechanical problems have come up because of it, and how well it worked?

I'm personally tired of all the "can a good character use poison" et cetera arguments, and am bothered by the shades of grey it cuts out of any campaign world (evil is evil, and good kills it!).

Also, current thought for revising it:

Alignment still exists, but there are two types of alignment: Tenuous and fundamental. Most creatures, including most characters, will be tenuous: Their alignment is not a tangible thing, and has no in-game effect aside from serving as a prerequisite (for classes, mainly). This means that you can't detect evil on a lowly rogue... He's just not that evil.

Then, there is fundamental alignment, which actually means something within the game world. Outsiders have a fundamental alignment, and so do certain native creatures: Good, evil, law, or chaos is actually an intrinsic part of their being.

Further, some character classes would attain fundamental alignment. Paladins would become fundamentally LG at a certain level... Clerics of their deity's alignment would, as well. Monks would probably become fundamentally Lawful at a certain level... Blackguards, and so on. (basically, the really religious classes)

Thoughts on all this?

 

[ShawnLStroud]

Alignment, Shlalingment

I use a modified rule for alignment. Everyone's got one, but alignment-based abilities, etc. only work on things that are ALWAYS that alignment. Thus, the Paladin's detect evil ability doesn't always work...

As to how alignment effects players -- in my game alignment is a guide. It's supposed to show you the basic inclinations of any given character. If you play a NG character, you're a NG character, no matter what the character sheet says. I've only had ONE character who wound up changing alignment due to roleplay -- that guy went from LE to LN based soley on how he had the character behave.

 

[Tonguez]

No effect what so ever

Outsiders have Good and Evil subtypes (eg Hell Hound Outsider Evil, Fire) and the Detect Evil spells clearly stats what it detects (ie Creatures with Evil subtypes, evil spells, clerics of evil gods etc - no mention of alignment at all)

Paladins must have a clearly stated Code which includes things like 'Goodness'

and that Evil subtype descriptors (as opposed to alignments) can be applied to weapons etc

 

[SylverFlame]

Personality Types

I ran into this problem when I was DM-ing 2e. We found a solution though.

We through out alignment all together. In the Class Books at the time they had personality types that were meant to flesh out characters and give quick start the chance to make a personality for your character. Some types were Pragmatic, Rebel, Mysterious, etc.

Each player chose three and ranked them 1, 2, or 3. The trait with one was the characters "major" trait and they descended from there. It gave some neat characters and each trait had as much info as any of the alignments. As well, the old argument "what exactly is good/lawful" didn't matter because everyone can tell when someone is being a rebel or conformist.

They only problem was altering the detect good/evil and such spells. One night and many coffee later we had it all solved and we were off to the races.

This really works well with Paladins and other "code" based characters because they know just when they step out of line.

 

[uv23]

I've always considered detect good/evil to be a bogus idea - a side effect of a system that simplifies killing of beasties by allowing you to, in effect, cast a spell that tells you whether they're fair game or not. A world where you actually have to investigate a potential enemy, find out what he's up to, what he's done, who he's done it with is far more interesting than having Mr. Paladin walk up to a cleric and cast detect evil on him, find out he's "evil", then strike him down.

Throw out alignment.. and all the crap that goes with it! Power to the people.

 

[der_kluge]

In Bluffside, the gods were specifically designed without Alignments. I say this, not to plug Bluffside, but to just point out that if you want to remove alignment from your game, you have to start with the gods and remove alignment from the gods. Gods are really beyond alignment anyway, if you think about it. Then, what you end up with is gray areas between whether a follower of "The Sufferer" is good or evil. You can never be quite sure. So, it makes things not so distinguishable.

There are probably a number of spells that would have to be modified, namely prot. from good/evil.

You could either remove them completely, or change them in some drastic way.

 

[N Hammer]

Alignment can go or stay, doesn't matter to me...

I tell a starting player to decide how he wants his character to act...and then give him a alignment based on that....

Alignments change as the character changes.

 

[DreamChaser]

Rather than GvE you could do what the Oriental Adventures essentially did which was set up a system where the alignment of a person or creature is irrelevant. Instead, their orientation toward Taint and the Shadowlands was what mattered. A person who takes advantage of others and causes suffering may be evil but they are not actually seeking the obliteration of society and life (although they may get an invitation to join up).

I adopted this for one of my games. There are no spells or powers that can determine if a creature or person is "good" or "evil" but there are ways of determining if a person or item is Defiled. Detect Deflilment, Protection from Defilement, Dispel Defilement, etc. That is all that really matters; everything else is essentially the same in the eyes of the Powers that Be.

 

[Fires Under Water]

more interesting than having Mr. Paladin walk up to a cleric and cast detect evil on him, find out he's "evil", then strike him down.

I've currently got a psychotic Paladin running around in my campaign world. The PCs are all around level 8, so they're becoming one man armies, especially in crowded halls. The party Paladin, who's actually a decent RPer normally, cast Detect Evil in the palace of the local king. A guard nearby fairly RADIATED evil, so guard gets run through.

His partner, who CAN'T detect evil, attacks the Paladin, who in turn kills him (after pausing for a moment, saying "But he was evil!" and getting a halberd in the stomache).

Long story short, things escalated quickly. The king, who was a neutral evil and worshipping some ancient deity, comes down the hall as the Paladin has just finished toasting the barracks.

Him: "Detect Evil"

Me: "Okay, after about thirty seconds, you find the King is radiating evil as well, as are the two councilers around him." *sigh*

Him: "BLASphemers! Prepare to die!"

Initiative is rolled, he charges the King, gets lucky on a Crit, and manages to Greatcleave the entire bunch of them with his longsword.

I really despise the Detect spells.

 

[Relic]

I use the d20 Modern alternative to alignment: Allegiances. A PC chooses three (or more) Allegiances that fit his/her character. Here is a list:

Defense of the Weak
Might Makes Right (admiration of physical strength & prowess)
Justice
Least Suffering
Virtuous Living
Hedonism
Free Market
Discipline/Stoicism (usually includes obedience to higher authority)
Romance
Freedom of the Individual
Honesty
Selflessness/Charity
Courage
Ambition (to rise in station)
Curiousity
Church
State/Kingdom
Vengeance
Pacifist
Communist
Order
Chaos
Equality

Thus, a paladin might choose Order, Justice, and Church (traits associated with Lawful Good). A rogue may choose Freedom of the Individual, Romance, and Hedonism (traits representative of Chaotic Good). A sorcerer might choose Communist, Ambition,
and Discipline (representing traits of a lawful evil alignment).

It defines what a character believes is important... and provides a baseline for how that character perceives the world, how he/she interacts with the world, and how he/she might be perceived by others.

The System Reference Document (SRD) for d20 Modern can be found at:

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=msrd

Take a look at another board discussing Allegiances:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30185