What happens with reliable multi-target powers?

[phloog]

But I do think this is yet another instance of sloppy work...and frankly, while I personally think that the intent should be for any single hit to count as a use of the power, the RAW ARE ambiguous, particularly for something that gives multiple strikes.

It could be argued that the intent WAS to have it not be used up if ANY attacks miss - - because if you have five valid targets, and only HIT one, it's not that impressive of a power, and therefore maybe the intent was that you don't expend it until you get a 'worthy' use of it. Otherwise you could 'waste' this power on only one attack.

Do I personally think that's what was meant? No, but it could be argued that way and WOTC should have taken more care.

As far as dismissing the argument because it would inspire a fighter to WANT to miss, while wanting to miss makes no sense, we've seen with Orcus that there are powers that cause the user to desire a miss (Orcus can do far more damage on a miss with one power than a hit).

Again, we can argue about intent, but as written it's sloppy and subject to interpretation/misinterpretation.

EDIT: Also, if we're speaking of INTENT, then it would appear to me that the entire INTENT of the 'reliable' property is to avoid a situation where the outcome of the use of these more rare abilities is lame. I know people are claiming that they would rule the RAI and ANY hit uses it up - - - I wouldn't go so far as to say that ONE miss retains it, but I might rule that if you don't get at least TWO hits then you keep the use.

 

[Zurai]

No, you've clearly not seen my point. My point is that everyone is sweeping a glaring issue under the rug and pretending everything is just jim-dandy-fine. The rules clearly don't do what they think they do. This issue also causes potential trickle-down problems. Also, it obviously is easier to be confused by it honestly rather than by being an intentionally disruptive player, seeing as this topic exists. People, by and large, will defer to the rules when questions about the rules come up. Currently the rules as written create a problem.

 

[Liebot]

Ok, so we need some errata. Can this topic be closed now?

 

[Zurai]

You're more than welcome to never set foot in the topic again. No one's holding a gun to your head.

 

[Thasmodious]

I gotta agree with mort. A hit is not a miss. Reliable says "if you miss when using a reliable POWER, you don't expend the use of that power." Not if you miss with one of the attacks. If you hit anyone, the power went off and by any definition, you did not miss with that power. So, yeah, RAW, I would say it only helps on a complete whiff, which helps a lot for choosing to use that power against a solo monster.

 

[keterys]

While the intent is quite clear that it hit _at all_, the wording is also quite clear that if you miss _at all_, it is not expended.

Wishful thinking does not a proper rule make. If you feel strongly that it should work that way, follow some channel, eventually errata will follow. Moving on.

P.S. Watch out for someone trying to make a Reliable Cascade of Blades. Just saying.

 

[Dausuul]

It is written as intended. If you hit, at all, then you haven't missed.

When you make an attack roll, if your roll is less than the target's Defense, you miss. That's the RAW. If you make a series of attack rolls, some of them will probably hit (triggering the effect that happens under "Hit"), and some of them will miss. As soon as one of them misses, the Reliable keyword triggers ("If you miss while using a Reliable power").

I gotta agree with mort. A hit is not a miss. Reliable says "if you miss when using a reliable POWER, you don't expend the use of that power." Not if you miss with one of the attacks. If you hit anyone, the power went off and by any definition, you did not miss with that power. So, yeah, RAW, I would say it only helps on a complete whiff, which helps a lot for choosing to use that power against a solo monster.

So, if you attack eight guys, and you hit with one attack roll and miss with the other seven, do you get to apply damage to all of them? You hit with the power, therefore you get to apply the Hit effect to the targets, right?

Sorry, you're wrong. Powers do not "hit" and "miss." Attack rolls "hit" and "miss." If you make eight attack rolls in the course of using a power, you'll end up with a mix of hits and misses. Notice that the Reliable rule doesn't say "If the power misses," it says, "If you miss while using the power."

Of course, as others have said, the clear intent of the rule is otherwise, and I doubt anybody here is planning to run the game by RAW in this regard. But hopefully WotC will take note and bear this in mind when writing similar rules in future.

 

[Zsig]

Even though, I suppose, anyone can see what's intended, that if you hit at least one of the attacks then the power is used up, I'll have to disagree with this post:

It is written as intended. If you hit, at all, then you haven't missed.

That means then, that if you throw a Fireball against 10 foes, and you hit only one of them, then everyone takes FULL damage? Yes, because technically "if you hit at all, you haven't missed" so the "Miss: half damage" never happens, because, well... you haven't missed...

 

[Surgoshan]

Zsig, you're misunderstanding Mort. Deliberately, it seems. The power has hit. It hasn't hit everyone it was aimed at, but it has hit something.

 

[Oldtimer]

Let me chime in on the side of Zorai here. The Rules as Written clearly state that the power is not expended if you miss when using it. Not miss entirely, only miss. Seven hits, one miss, not expended. Any other reading is just illogical.

Of course, the result of this is highly broken, so they need some errata promptly. However, it can't just be as simple as adding the word "entirely", since that would make Reliable very low value for AoE attacks. Hardly what was intended either.