What holds the world in balance? (or, why aren't demons over-running the world?)

[karlindel]

There are a number of explanations:

The demons aren't organized, and since it's every demon for itself, they actually get in each other's way.

Demons don't actually have an easy way to get to the world.

Primal spirits/gods/etc keep the world safe for their own reasons. Even if the gods all have different alignments, they might all be willing to work together to keep other creatures from stepping into their territory, each for their own reasons.

Demons have something inherent in them that prevents it (i.e. it requires some kind of energy to manifest in the world and so they can't remain for long, or they are only capable of manifesting when certain conditions are met).

Demons prefer the Abyss. This is similar to the previous reason, but in reverse. Maybe the Abyss is a great power source for them. Maybe they relish the challenge of a real fight, and the world doesn't normally provide it (i.e. the world is a fun little playground for awhile, but they'd rather go up against the big boys to show off their power). Maybe the world is somewhat uncomfortable to them, or the Abyss just feels like home.

There is some kind of cosmic balance that prevents it. I'm not a fan of this one, as I prefer explanations wherein the PCs can make a difference in the grand scheme of things, and this seems to limit that.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Grimdark? Where is that on the continuum between Shadowfell and Scarytown?

Somewhere in the middle, I'd wager. "Grimdark" is generally used somewhat sardonically to describe the various Warhammer settings. In particular, the tagline for WH 40K is "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war." It means bleak, poor living conditions, etc. PoL is probably not as grimdark as WH, but it's more in that direction.

 

[pawsplay]

In the old Immortals set, demons are simply Immortals of the Sphere of Entropy. They haven't overrun the world because they are interested primarily in their immortal concerns. Same for the forces of "light" and "good" which in BECMI D&D, are not granted unviersal moral authority (alignment is Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic only).

 

[Jdvn1]

I thought they just didn't like the weather. Why don't more people move to Tibet?

 

[Theroc]

I thought they just didn't like the weather. Why don't more people move to Tibet?

Because I'm poor!

 

[CleverNickName]

For example, there might be a Good/Evil zero sum rule. So every demon that enters the world allows an angel to enter to balance him. Which btw explains why the forces of good are so reluctant to intervene directly, they don't want to allow a corosponding number of demons to intervene elsewhere. Or more interestingly it might be sort of the opposite of the planescape assumption. That is to say the prescence of supernatural evil in the mortal world might balance out by moving the whole mortal plane that much closer to goodness.

Holy crap. Consider this yoinked.

 

[Inyssius]

Why aren't demons overrunning the world? Because they are not adjacent to the world. Why would they travel an infinite distance to get here when there's perfectly good realms to overrun and corrupt and raze and destroy within spitting distance?

It would be rather like Nazi Germany advancing on Wisconsin. Yes, Wisconsin needs invading... but France and Britain need invading too, and they're, you know, right there.

The universe is big. They'll reach us eventually.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

The fiends had several reasons for not swamping the prime material plane:

1 - they had bigger things to worry about. Namely, each other. They couldn't divert resources, or feared what might happen if they diverted resources from the Blood War.

I don't know, if you offered a demon the opportunity to go-a-hunting solo on the prime material, how many demons are going to refuse rather than gorging themselves? Unless their appetite is less than their fear, they ain't gonna refuse an invitation.

2 - they created new fiends either entirely (baatezu) or primarily (tanar'ri) from mortal souls. It was in their own best interests to largely leave the worlds of the material plane alone to function as sources of new souls, with the exception of small-scale attempts to sway a given world towards their side of the alignment spectrum, so as to enrich their ranks and starve their enemies.

That just seems like too much restraint for your average demon. Once onto a good thing, would they not want more of it?

3 - the 'loths aren't as much players here. They're utterly disinterested in mortals for the most part, and more focused on the planes, and in any event, the first two reasons are vastly larger players here.

The first part I agree with. [I have to say that I really hate disagreeing with Shemeska when it comes to the planes. It feels unnatural and like little demons are gonna come a-visiting in retribution. ] I just can't buy that restraint or lack of appetite is going to stop a demon from the ultimate lolly shop that is the prime material plane.

Actually, I think the major reason why demons don't go flooding the prime material is because they can't. The only demon (in the MM) that can plane shift is the Bebilith and that ability is restricted to themselves alone. Couple this with the fact that a Bebilith gets happy by eating a demon-only diet, and thus a demon's only way of cracking it onto the prime is through either a portal/gate or by being invited. Crack teams of Angels/Heroes go looking for such portals or demon-worshippers/meddlers (or as Danny Alcatraz nicely said, the one way door idea for the majority of portals is a good one).

I think combine this with Andor's brilliant zero sum idea and you have a pretty strong reason why demons aren't flooding the prime. Fascinating conversation everyone by the way. Top Notch!

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[FireLance]

Heroes of course, silly!

Or, anti-heroes.

(Yes, I read the comic linked in your sig. )

 

[WalterKovacs]

I don't know, if you offered a demon the opportunity to go-a-hunting solo on the prime material, how many demons are going to refuse rather than gorging themselves? Unless their appetite is less than their fear, they ain't gonna refuse an invitation.

True. But while a sole demon could do quite a bit of damage before someone is sent to dispatch it, they would probably end up drawing attention to themselves and the appropriate level of adventurers would be there soon.

Generally, for the demons to overrun the world would require quite a few to get through at once. Demons lack the coordiation to plan and execute a full scale invassion, so most incursions are in small numbers. Most ways they would get in would be short term. In 4e, there are ways to make permanent teleportation links ... but they require a year worth of maintaining the ritual before it becomes permanent (as an example), and even then it's possible to destroy it. The general threat of one of these portals being open (and demons on the material plane in general) is a magnet for exactly the kind of people that would go and shut something like that down.

The lack of restraint that make it seem unlikely demons would hold out for a bigger reward in the long term would also be the reason they couldn't create a sustainable portal to the material plane from which to mount an invasion (or to even mount an invasion in the first place). Their short sightedness would mean that most that escape into the material plane would be concerned solely with wreaking havok instead of any detailed world domination plan, or even just laying low or covering their tracks.