What I don't get RE: FR and High Level NPC's

[Brewhammer]

Hey all. A recurring theme I've always heard come up when players complain about FR is the number of high level NPC's who apparently steal the PC's thunder.

I bring this up now because Chris Perkins just discussed it with Gamer Zer0 and pointed to that argument as justification for 'nuking' high level FR NPC's.

I have never understood this argument. Not ever. There is nothing in any of the core rulebooks saying that the high level NPC's have to be used - or for that matter even brought up or introduced. Absolutely nothing. So if they are being used to "clean up PC messes" then ultimately whose fault is that? The high level NPC's? Or the DM's running the games?

If you're in a FR campaign and you're disgruntled or otherwise nonplussed because Elminster, Drizzt or the Simbul routinely rush in and crash the party and steal your fun... you need to take a step back and accurately assess that blame. It's poor DM'ing, folks - it doesn't stem from having high level NPC's. 'Nuking' Mystra's Chosen isn't going to correct poor DM'ing. Not ever.

 

[Steely Dan]

It's true, in my 18 years of DMing The Realms, the player's characters have yet to hobnob with Drizzt or have a cuppa with Elminster or what have you.

But I do still think there are too many golden boys in FR.

I can see the need to clean up Toril a little bit – it has become a bit polluted for me.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If you're in a FR campaign and you're disgruntled or otherwise nonplussed because Elminster, Drizzt or the Simbul routinely rush in and crash the party and steal your fun... you need to take a step back and accurately assess that blame. It's poor DM'ing, folks - it doesn't stem from having high level NPC's. 'Nuking' Mystra's Chosen isn't going to correct poor DM'ing. Not ever.

The idea is that it is bad DMs who don't accurately portray the world. This world has those NPCs, and in all the official cannon novels they show up to save the day. Therefore, one can reasonably assume that to be accurate to the world means either coming up with a REALLY good excuse why they aren't saving the day or to actually have them show up.

To a lot of people, the idea that all 40 or 50 of them are "just too busy right now" isn't a REALLY good excuse.

Especially when your plot may already involve them or their friends in some way. It would be difficult to run a game where a dragon attacks Waterdeep and the only ones who can protect the city are the PCs. This is because the books tell us that there are a LOT of high level NPCs who live in Waterdeep, are good friends of the people in Waterdeep or have reasons to want to protect Waterdeep. Is it worse DMing to have all of them mysteriously absent or to have them show up and save the town much faster and easier than the PCs could? Especially when all of your players have read the novels and are wondering "I wonder where Blackstaff and Elminster are?"

 

[Uzzy]

I agree entirely. DM's are even given advice not to use the NPC's like that in the FRCS, in both the Concerns of the Mighty and Make PC's the Stars sections. It's poor DMing, pure and simple, and could occur in Eberron, Dragonlance, Greyhawk or any custom world. Yet somehow the Realms got this entirely false perception.

Rather then argue against it, and perhaps change a few aspects of the presentation of the Realms, WoTC have chosen to kowtow to those who say that these interesting, high level NPC's ruin their games. It's a real shame.

I would say that just lately, with the mass of RSE's coming in, we have gotten quite a few second string high level characters, which really isn't needed. Nor are most of them as well developed as the Chosen.

40 or 50 of them

Gross over-exaggeration.

 

[Brewhammer]

This is because the books tell us that there are a LOT of high level NPCs who live in Waterdeep, are good friends of the people in Waterdeep or have reasons to want to protect Waterdeep. Is it worse DMing to have all of them mysteriously absent or to have them show up and save the town much faster and easier than the PCs could? Especially when all of your players have read the novels and are wondering "I wonder where Blackstaff and Elminster are?"

In that scenario I'd suggest that maybe it's not one dragon attacking Waterdeep but a whole slew of 'em - maybe there's even a Dracolich somewhere (maybe the Castle Ward) that's tying the NPC's up but what's central to the PC's and what they have to focus on is the one red dragon trying to take hold of the South Ward.

Region is absolutely a consideration for one's own home campaign. If you base your campaign, or part of it, in Waterdeep then yeah you should expect to bump into the high level NPC's there in that sort of city-wide event. Absolutely. Same with Thay, or Cormyr. Yet for every spot that's crawling with high level NPC's there are several that aren't. For every Waterdeep there's a Luiren and many others that high level NPC's tend to not congregate in - heh.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The problem with the Realms, IMO, is not the NPCs per se ... it's the novels impacting on the campaign setting. Novels sell with familiar, powerful characters and Realms-Shattering Events. By themselves this is not bad, but when the novels also become canon to the campaign setting you end up with a lot of machinations in the campaign setting. Plus the large number of novel fans represent a portion of the fanbase that expects to see novel-like continuity within the campaign. I think that portion is much smaller than projected, but it is there.

The gaming Realms would be better off if not impacted by the novel Realms, but since that is the relationship FR has grown into I don't see it changing.

 

[Brewhammer]

The problem with the Realms, IMO, is not the NPCs per se ... it's the novels impacting on the campaign setting. Novels sell with familiar, powerful characters and Realms-Shattering Events. By themselves this is not bad, but when the novels also become canon to the campaign setting you end up with a lot of machinations in the campaign setting. Plus the large number of novel fans represent a portion of the fanbase that expects to see novel-like continuity within the campaign. I think that portion is much smaller than projected, but it is there.

The gaming Realms would be better off if not impacted by the novel Realms, but since that is the relationship FR has grown into I don't see it changing.

I understand where you're coming from on that though I've never felt it negatively in my own home campaigns. But that concern I do understand.

I think that'll be less of a problem for people who don't like it based on what I've read/heard regarding 4E FR from the WotC folks all the way up to Ed.

Still though I don't see that necessitating the 'nuking' of high level NPC's.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

For every Waterdeep there's a Luiren and many others that high level NPC's tend to not congregate in - heh.

Except Luiren doesn't have an entire hardbound book devoted to it. And while "everyone" knows what Waterdeep is not everyone knows what Lurien is or what makes it special.

(Heck, I don't recognise the name Lurien - I'm just using it because the the quited poster used it - but I recognise Waterdeep and know something of that location.)

And again, in the above example of multiple dragons. If the entire town is being attacked by multiple dragons - it won't be the important red dragon that people in the local tavern will be talking about. It would be the one the Blackstaff or Elminster took out because they are Blackstaff and Elminster. It doesn't matter if the dracolich turned out in be a three-inch high "draco-lizrd" that Elminster accidently stepped on - it's what would be talked about. (I try to avoid celebrity gossip and I still feel that I know of every public sighting of Spears and Lohan - it's the same thing.) So even if the party took out the "real" big bad the NPCs are still stealing the party's thunder.

Waterdeep is a recognised name to those with even a passing familiarity with the realms. Waterdeep has the book published about it, but you can't have a major adventure (one that is any real serious threat to the town) without dealing with at least Blackstaff (shows up and steals the thunder or somehow convienently doesn't know about the threat to his beloved town) and maybe having to add in Elminster or other Chosen for real high level threats.

Just having the threat in a known location (which is part of the draw of adventuring in the Realms) risks the players asking about the big names. That's a problem that shouldn't be there.

 

[Uzzy]

The gaming Realms would be better off if not impacted by the novel Realms, but since that is the relationship FR has grown into I don't see it changing.

I agree Olgar, to an extent. It's those RSE Novels that damage the Realms. Other novels like Songs and Swords, Sembia series, the Knights of Myth Drannor add immensely to the Realms, but are small scale enough to be ignored by DM's, or mined for inspiration.

Print more novels that don't impact on the Realms so much.

 

[Brewhammer]

Except Luiren doesn't have an entire hardbound book devoted to it. And while "everyone" knows what Waterdeep is not everyone knows what Lurien is or what makes it special.

(Heck, I don't recognise the name Lurien - I'm just using it because the the quited poster used it - but I recognise Waterdeep and know something of that location.)

It's the halfling homeland - part of the Shining South. I don't understand the feeling that because there isn't a sourcebook for it that you can't adventure there. The FR Sourcebook tells you all you need to know about it (and others) to start making up your OWN games for it. Heck, the fact that it (and others) DON'T have a sourcebook could be a positive for the locale - especially if players are suffering from NPC envy.

And again, in the above example of multiple dragons. If the entire town is being attacked by multiple dragons - it won't be the important red dragon that people in the local tavern will be talking about. It would be the one the Blackstaff or Elminster took out because they are Blackstaff and Elminster. It doesn't matter if the dracolich turned out in be a three-inch high "draco-lizrd" that Elminster accidently stepped on - it's what would be talked about. (I try to avoid celebrity gossip and I still feel that I know of every public sighting of Spears and Lohan - it's the same thing.) So even if the party took out the "real" big bad the NPCs are still stealing the party's thunder.

Not necessarily so. What's to say the townsfolk working and living in the South Ward don't hail the PC's as heroes for saving them while the 'Lords of Waterdeep' completely forgot them to save the Castle Ward? That opens up a whole new group of highly appreciative low to mid-level NPC townsfolk and contacts for other campaigns - right there in Waterdeep (that could take them to other lands too - maybe a fishmonger's daughter has runaway with a foreign sailor and he's keen to get her back?) and needing to have nothing to do with the higher level NPC's whatsoever.

Waterdeep is a recognised name to those with even a passing familiarity with the realms. Waterdeep has the book published about it, but you can't have a major adventure (one that is any real serious threat to the town) without dealing with at least Blackstaff (shows up and steals the thunder or somehow convienently doesn't know about the threat to his beloved town) and maybe having to add in Elminster or other Chosen for real high level threats.

Sure you can. Imagination is the only limit there. Waterdeep is so large of a town that adventuring can take place inside it without ever having to even meet the higher level NPC's. Sure the PC's might hear about them, but Hell - it's Waterdeep.

Just having the threat in a known location (which is part of the draw of adventuring in the Realms) risks the players asking about the big names. That's a problem that shouldn't be there.

Asking and meeting/adventuring with/being saved by are not at all the same things, nor should they be.