What I don't get RE: FR and High Level NPC's

[Shazman]

Hey all. A recurring theme I've always heard come up when players complain about FR is the number of high level NPC's who apparently steal the PC's thunder.

I bring this up now because Chris Perkins just discussed it with Gamer Zer0 and pointed to that argument as justification for 'nuking' high level FR NPC's.

I have never understood this argument. Not ever. There is nothing in any of the core rulebooks saying that the high level NPC's have to be used - or for that matter even brought up or introduced. Absolutely nothing. So if they are being used to "clean up PC messes" then ultimately whose fault is that? The high level NPC's? Or the DM's running the games?

If you're in a FR campaign and you're disgruntled or otherwise nonplussed because Elminster, Drizzt or the Simbul routinely rush in and crash the party and steal your fun... you need to take a step back and accurately assess that blame. It's poor DM'ing, folks - it doesn't stem from having high level NPC's. 'Nuking' Mystra's Chosen isn't going to correct poor DM'ing. Not ever.

I've made this point before, and the simple logic of it often gets ignored. Elminster and the rest of the Chosen aren't going to barge their way into your campaign. If they are there, it's because the DM has put them there. Considering the size of the Realms and the number of things going on at any one time, it is not illogical to assume that the PC's are on their own to handle a particular catastrophe.

 

[Stormtalon]

A while back, when the whole Githyanki Invasion campaign hooks were roaming thru Dragon & Dungeon, I decided to take that and run with it; and place the PCs in Aglarond, with the opening salvo happening next door in Thay. There were questions about where the Simbul was but they initially were easily handwaved away with, "Somewhere off in the planes, we're trying to contact her now -- meanwhile, you can go find out what's happening in Thay."

The Red Wizards were also easily taken out of the picture by the expedient tactic of Vlaakith using Gates to drop 100' chunks of astral stone on their towers from thousands of feet in the air. After that, it became obvious that the big-hitters would have their hands full across the Realms trying to keep the same thing from happening where they were. Presto, one group of PCs had just become the centerpiece of the entire Invasion.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's the halfling homeland - part of the Shining South. I don't understand the feeling that because there isn't a sourcebook for it that you can't adventure there. The FR Sourcebook tells you all you need to know about it (and others) to start making up your OWN games for it. Heck, the fact that it (and others) DON'T have a sourcebook could be a positive for the locale - especially if players are suffering from NPC envy.

This means (to me at least) that wizards shouldn't bother bringing out source books on regions that are "infested" with high level characters, because you won't use them in your game. So, the logical conclusion might be to just remove the high level NPCs entirely from the setting.

Not necessarily so. What's to say the townsfolk working and living in the South Ward don't hail the PC's as heroes for saving them while the 'Lords of Waterdeep' completely forgot them to save the Castle Ward? That opens up a whole new group of highly appreciative low to mid-level NPC townsfolk and contacts for other campaigns - right there in Waterdeep (that could take them to other lands too - maybe a fishmonger's daughter has runaway with a foreign sailor and he's keen to get her back?) and needing to have nothing to do with the higher level NPC's whatsoever.

This would make them local heroes, despite being high level, and still mean there is someone else more important to most people.


I think a lot of problems with the Realms lies in how people percieve them. But apparently, it's next to impossible to change the perceptions. Several high level NPCs in every big city just cause all the uncomfortable questions about why don't they do it, and even if you sometimes have answers, it eventually feels like a stretch.
If the perception apparently can't be changed, WotC decided to change the setting - with the hope (or marketing data indicating) that more people would be interested in the Realms with the changes then people who are lost due to the changes.

 

[vagabundo]

Yeah meeting the NPCs is cool! I de-levelled and altered the background of several characters in Silverymoon, which completely alienated some of my one-time players.

Am I a bad DM because I said "Drizzt is the most powerful warrior in the kingdom, but he's visiting friends in the South?" To wit, a player indicated that Drizzt would never leave the North if he had even an inkling that there would be a menace to Silverymoon.

This problem can happen in any well-published setting, but it just seems to happen way to much to different DMs in FR games.

The players know too much of the setting, it is out of the DMs control. They know how powerful the NPCs are and what they tend to do.

If the PC are in a situation that they feel is of sufficient visibility they will wonder where Eliminster is or Drizzt. It hurts their suspense of disbelief if there is not an elaborate backstory each time , eventually it wears thin and the NPC have to appear. That is were the trouble begins.

I'm lucky in that my players are not familiar with FR, I only started using it as it had the most material published.

Still it would help my suspension of disbelief if there was some good reasons for NPC staying out of things and getting rid of quite a few of them would help. Maybe Eliminster is now sworn out of meddling directly in the affairs of the Realms, the gods forced him into retirement (still he meddles a little, indirectly. as a patron maybe. ).

 

[Brewhammer]

This means (to me at least) that wizards shouldn't bother bringing out source books on regions that are "infested" with high level characters, because you won't use them in your game. So, the logical conclusion might be to just remove the high level NPCs entirely from the setting.

I'm not saying I dislike usng the higher level NPC's. Not at all. DM's just need to know how to use them properly. If the high level NPC's are leading to new adventuring opportunities then that's beneficial. If they're coming in, routinely, to save the PC's butts then that's bad. That's what I see many complaining about but that's not the fault of having high level NPC's - it's poor DM'ing.

This would make them local heroes, despite being high level, and still mean there is someone else more important to most people.

In Waterdeep? Yeah probably. Like I said, region is important. If I am starting a new super hero group in New York, should I expect that the citizens will start loving me better than the Avengers or the Fantastic Four?

I think a lot of problems with the Realms lies in how people percieve them. But apparently, it's next to impossible to change the perceptions. Several high level NPCs in every big city just cause all the uncomfortable questions about why don't they do it, and even if you sometimes have answers, it eventually feels like a stretch.

If the perception apparently can't be changed, WotC decided to change the setting - with the hope (or marketing data indicating) that more people would be interested in the Realms with the changes then people who are lost due to the changes.

If you're thinking of them as 'uncomfortable questions' right off the bat, then that's already working against you before you try to come up with explanations as to why the heroes have to handle something as opposed to say Storm Silverhand. It's not that hard and the challenge can be fun.

 

[Brewhammer]

Still it would help my suspension of disbelief if there was some good reasons for NPC staying out of things and getting rid of quite a few of them would help. Maybe Eliminster is now sworn out of meddling directly in the affairs of the Realms, the gods forced him into retirement (still he meddles a little, indirectly. as a patron maybe. ).

Or even while he's disguised. He's done that many a time before!

 

[vagabundo]

I'm not saying I dislike usng the higher level NPC's. Not at all. DM's just need to know how to use them properly. If the high level NPC's are leading to new adventuring opportunities then that's beneficial. If they're coming in, routinely, to save the PC's butts then that's bad. That's what I see many complaining about but that's not the fault of having high level NPC's - it's poor DM'ing.

I think it is unfair to call it poor DMing. The way FR is presented in the source book it is hard to run. It is nearly impossible for a DM to make FR his own setting as there is so much canon, tons of high level PC that go around saving the world every day. Players familar with the setting through the novels have very specific ideas of what the world is like. I would want WOTC to do more of the work, they have the talent.

Give me reasons why eliminster is busy, why are the Simbuls hands tied, where the is Drizzt? Or kill the lot of them, plunge the place into a dark age and let my players start to build it back up again.

Anyway I am lucky and my players know little about the place and dont question the world too much. I control the flow of information, if I had some FR fans in my group I dont think I'd run it.

 

[Victim]

It's not just the A list characters like Elminster and Drizzt (who's not actually all that powerful) that can be problematic. There are lots of local high level (but not epic plus) NPCs scattered around the Realms too.

What purpose is there in building lots of high powered NPCs into the setting if using them is bad DMing?

 

[JohnRTroy]

One of the main points I remember from the first version Waterdeep was that a few of the NPCs should be of high level. Blackstaff was supposed to always be at least 10 levels above the most powerful member of the PC party--as a humbling device, should the PCs ever get too big for their britches.

Now, I can understand toning down elements like the Chosen. However, part of the fault is the whole metaplot device--which can be toned down but that's a Wizard's issue.

Part of it is player perception, and I while I agree all campaigns should be PC-centric, I also believe you do need powerful allies, patrons, villains, and other personages involved in a campaign world. I don't agree with "make most NPCs 7th level or less" because in a world that's been around and has such rich history, you definately would have patrons, etc.

 

[frankthedm]

Give me reasons why eliminster is busy, why are the Simbuls hands tied, where the is Drizzt?

If they are in the setting, then they have to show up sometimes. If the PCs first question is “Who can easily stop this problem?” rather than “How can we stop this problem?”, there is a problem with the setting.

Or kill the lot of them, plunge the place into a dark age and let my players start to build it back up again.

That would be the points of lights approach.

I control the flow of information, if I had some FR fans in my group I dont think I'd run it.

While the reboot won’t end the annoyances of having a FR know-it- all at the table, It will put the kibosh on them saying ”Can’t someone else deal with the problem?”