D&D 4E What I miss about 4e (my preferences of course)

[Finalattack]

I've read over the playtest material and look forward to running a game with some friends. I got to say that I'm not as excited about the latest iteration of DnD, though I understand why it has changed into what it is.

DnD next positives:
Seems like combat is quicker and players who aren't as keen on complexity can really get an idea of their characters easily. This gives room for the focus to be on the roleplay rather than the roll-play. Slim systems tend to make better roleplay games.

How I felt when 4th ed came out:
I really got excited about 4th ed. I saw a black dragon which cast darkness and as a reaction to any PC misses would hit PCs with his tail. Wow, cool interaction. Kobold as a racial trait stepped 5 feet as a minor. Enemies were fun to control. Its a mini puzzle. PCs now had teleports, marks, taunts, at-will AoE spells, rangers firing 2 arrows and all at level 1! Action surges, and healing surges. It was tactical combat at its best. Combat required teamwork. It was exciting if maybe a little combat focused.

I remember making a fantastic elf laser cleric with a multi-class feat in ranger (with disruptive strike) whom would use his bow to deliver his at-will lances of light, and kept a single real arrow in his quiver for disruptive strike. He came from an area which was constantly winter and worshiped the raven queen. He had massive personality all born of the mechanics from the game. What was really amazing was this was all possible at low level.

Its early to say, and a lot of this is personal preference, but I liked about 4th ed is I could make a REALLY unique character, mechanically first and then through personality. I feel I'm pretty limited with the new DnD next, mechanically as there seem to be pretty minimal customisation overall and early on. I hope we see much more expansion in this area in future.

 

[pemerton]

I remember making a fantastic elf laser cleric with a multi-class feat in ranger (with disruptive strike) whom would use his bow to deliver his at-will lances of light, and kept a single real arrow in his quiver for disruptive strike. He came from an area which was constantly winter and worshiped the raven queen. He had massive personality all born of the mechanics from the game. What was really amazing was this was all possible at low level.

This is something that I find with 4e as well - the mechanics of PC build, and the choices you make, also build up the personality of the PC and his/her place within the world and its cosmology.

The best part of D&Dnext for that so far, I think, is its background system. I think the classes could use a little bit more work along these lines.

 

[Raith5]

You are not alone. I quite like the idea of quicker combats but the cost of interaction during fights is a steep one. It will be interesting to see what the proposed tactical module will add to DDN.

For my part the hardest thing is the move back to a combination of attack rolls and target saves to resolve combat - I just think the unified 4th mechanic of the attacker always rolls against AC/Reflex/Fort/Will is just simply easier and better.

 

[Serendipity]

I feel I'm pretty limited with the new DnD next, mechanically as there seem to be pretty minimal customisation overall and early on. I hope we see much more expansion in this area in future.

Hopefully this won't give you a reason to stop playing 4e, regardless of how your Next experience plays out. Everyone should be able to play what they like.

 

[MortalPlague]

I really got excited about 4th ed. I saw a black dragon which cast darkness and as a reaction to any PC misses would hit PCs with his tail. Wow, cool interaction.

For what it's worth, there are some big baddies coming down the pipeline who will interact like that. Legendary monsters are still in the early phase of development, but they look like they'll provide a nix mix of narrative badassery and combat tactics.

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130617

You have some legitimate criticisms of the system, though I think when we see the final books, we'll have more options to pick from. Even some of the other packets have offered interesting choices. I built a character for Vault of the Dracolich who was an exercise in creative design.

She was an elven Cleric of the Arcanist. She could heal, couldn't wear armor, but I gave her two weapons, two-weapon defense, and access to the Shield and Blur spells. So she could be at disadvantage for opponents to hit her, and could use a reactive 'shield' to gain +4 AC. Seemed like a pretty mechanically interesting build to me.

 

[heptat]

I really got excited about 4th ed. I saw a black dragon which cast darkness and as a reaction to any PC misses would hit PCs with his tail. Wow, cool interaction.

Yeah, that does sound cool.

Kobold as a racial trait stepped 5 feet as a minor.

Honestly, I don't even know what this sentence means.

PCs now had teleports, marks, taunts, at-will AoE spells, rangers firing 2 arrows and all at level 1!

Ok, starting to sound overpowered.

I remember making a fantastic elf laser cleric with a multi-class feat in ranger (with disruptive strike) whom would use his bow to deliver his at-will lances of light, and kept a single real arrow in his quiver for disruptive strike. He came from an area which was constantly winter and worshiped the raven queen. He had massive personality all born of the mechanics from the game. What was really amazing was this was all possible at low level.

Descriptions like this reinforce why I avoided 4E. That's the game for you, but it's so far away from the version of D&D I want to play. Which is fine – I didn't complain when 4E came out, I just played other things. I'm looking forward to Next because it isn't these things (especially at low level!). Because with Next I reckon I can easily play a dark and grim version of D&D.

However the things you mention about flavour, and that coming from the mechanics of 4E, do sound very good.

 

[Henry]

Yeah, that does sound cool.



Honestly, I don't even know what this sentence means.

To parse in 3e terms: as a racial ability, kobolds in 4e could take a 5 ft step as a swift action - which is a big deal because in 4 e a 5 ft step was a move action.

Ok, starting to sound overpowered.

Not in the context of the system - most in-combat "teleports" were basically once per combat 20 or 30 foot "jaunts" almost like a really short range dimension door - great for tactical surprises. The rest of it is cool in the context of the game rules, but nothing crazy, because once per encounter or reasonable damage totals are often the balancing factor.

In fact, while there used to be a lot of misperception of 4e as overpowered, in truth many thiings were scaled back dramatically compared to any other version of D & D - they significantly hampered tactics like scry-buff-teleport, and nobody was flying persistently until about 16th level or so.

Descriptions like this reinforce why I avoided 4E. That's the game for you, but it's so far away from the version of D&D I want to play. Which is fine – I didn't complain when 4E came out, I just played other things. I'm looking forward to Next because it isn't these things (especially at low level!). Because with Next I reckon I can easily play a dark and grim version of D&D.

However the things you mention about flavour, and that coming from the mechanics of 4E, do sound very good.

Personally, i firmly believe the Next system can get that tactical cool feel, but we' ll probably have to wait for an expansion or two to get it ALL back.

 

[Finalattack]

I think the term overpowered is often misunderstood or not really the right word to express the issue. I think he was saying it more in the context that his perception of a low level character is that they should be quite limited, with the promise of amazing power later. The concept of teleportation, invisibility or AoE spells at-will sound quite powerful. Though in the context of 4th ed combat they weren't overpowered at all, it creates dissonance when people think about what they imagine a level 1 character to be. I was quite happy to have a firebreathing dragonborn ranger with the ability to fire two arrows at once and heal once per day (through feats) as a level 1 character.

 

[heptat]

I think the term overpowered is often misunderstood or not really the right word to express the issue. I think he was saying it more in the context that his perception of a low level character is that they should be quite limited, with the promise of amazing power later. The concept of teleportation, invisibility or AoE spells at-will sound quite powerful. Though in the context of 4th ed combat they weren't overpowered at all, it creates dissonance when people think about what they imagine a level 1 character to be. I was quite happy to have a firebreathing dragonborn ranger with the ability to fire two arrows at once and heal once per day (through feats) as a level 1 character.

Correct. I wasn't trying to imply that it was unbalanced, just that that description makes me think "overpowered!"...which is just not my style of D&D/Fantasy RPG game.

I don't doubt that 4E has some really good things going for it, and I certainly hope they're not thrown out with what seems like a repudiation of all things 4E in the development of Next.

 

[RangerWickett]

Honestly, if someone just made a Fourthfinder game that fixed the stuff I hated about 4e but kept the majority that I liked, I'd probably be more interested in that than NEXT.

4e stuff I liked (with bad stuff in parenthetical italics)
Picking nifty powers (but the power list was too bloated and the character builder didn't let people vote on shi**y powers so you could filter to show only the good ones; ditto feats and magic items).

Interesting tactical options during combat (but early versions were grindy, and solos wae too vulnerable to debuffs, and the game unnecessarily scales up numbers as you level).

GMing is fast and easy, and statting up monsters is a cinch (but making a PC even with the character builder takes a few hours).

The amount of world-breaking magic was reined in (but at the same time interesting and iconic magic was also removed for 'balance' reasons; the Ring of Invisibility lasts for 1 round per day).

Give me a 4e with Bounded Accuracy, with only the options that were developed after the designers figured out how to use the system properly, and with a few more big splashy effects . . . and I'd be happy.