D&D 5E What I Miss From 1st Ed

[JRRNeiklot]

There was only 1 primary caster the wizard...

I take it you never played an illusionist or druid. Consider: A magic user gets his max spell level at 18th level and 3,000,001 exp. An illusionist at 14th level and 1,320,001 exp. Don't make the mistake that the illusionist and druid, and the cleric for that matter, being limited to level 7 spells is a penalty. It is not, it is a bonus. For instance, the illusionist gets maze as a level 5 spell (10th level/220,000 exp, for the the magic user, it's level 8 (16th level/2,250,001. Also, color spray trumps the magic user's sleep spell in spades, and hypnotism is the cleric's command spell on steroids. And that's only at first level.The druid is just insane in how it gains access to it's admittedly less flashy and more specialized spells. Level 7 spells at 300,001 exp . Four times quicker than the illusionist, and ten times quicker than a magic user. Oh yeah, the druid's attack matrix will be equal to a fighter of the same exp about half the time.

You can't compare 1st edition classes per level, you must compare them at similar exp totals.

 

[TerraDave]

I *don't* miss inconsistent and irrational mechanics.

I *do* miss Gygaxian language, cartoons in the DMG, fun tables (potion miscibility, wandering prostitutes), and quirky magic items.

Luckily I have all my books still, but I do hope 5E inherits some of the flavor of 1E.

Thats a good summary. (can't XP)

As for the OP, as I noted in the other thread, Cleric, Druid, and Illusionist are in fact "primary" casters by the standards of the time. Even thieves and assassins could access to spells through scrolls. Of the PHB classes, only the fighter had no innate access to spells or spell like abilities, though for any mid to high level fighter magic items would be a big part of their effectiveness.

 

[fjw70]

I miss magic items with charges depleting and forever gone once used (rather than coming back the next morning). And the ability to recharge some items possibly.

Yes charges were fun.

Tracking charges weren't fun though. Maybe a random roll based on the number of charges it could have would be interesting. For example, instead of 100 charges in a wand when you use it you roll a d% and if you roll 01 then the charges are depleted.

 

[Zardnaar]

I take it you never played an illusionist or druid. Consider: A magic user gets his max spell level at 18th level and 3,000,001 exp. An illusionist at 14th level and 1,320,001 exp. Don't make the mistake that the illusionist and druid, and the cleric for that matter, being limited to level 7 spells is a penalty. It is not, it is a bonus. For instance, the illusionist gets maze as a level 5 spell (10th level/220,000 exp, for the the magic user, it's level 8 (16th level/2,250,001. Also, color spray trumps the magic user's sleep spell in spades, and hypnotism is the cleric's command spell on steroids. And that's only at first level.The druid is just insane in how it gains access to it's admittedly less flashy and more specialized spells. Level 7 spells at 300,001 exp . Four times quicker than the illusionist, and ten times quicker than a magic user. Oh yeah, the druid's attack matrix will be equal to a fighter of the same exp about half the time.

You can't compare 1st edition classes per level, you must compare them at similar exp totals.

Yes I played a Druid but as a general rule arcane magic was stronger than divine magic in TSR era D&D. wwWe never made it to level 14 IIRC my Druid got to 10th level. Clerics and Druids were also hybrids as weapon and armor use meant a bit more back then and only 4/11 classes were primary casters if one counts the Cleric, Druid, and Illusionist. D&DN is having 6 classes with level 9 spells and the Paladin and Ranger are going to be similar spell wise to the Bard.

 

[Zardnaar]

Up until 3.x anyways, where you're basically shooting yourself in the kneecaps if you're playing a non-caster class.

Not in OSR D&D except maybe at the highest levels and also depending on what books the DM allowed. Getting to those high levels was very rare though and TSR surveys at the time revealed something like over 90% of the player base did not play high level D&D and most of the classic adventures are for level 1-10. IIRC the expectation was 6 hours a week gaming it would take about a year to get to name level (9 or 10) and then 2 levels every year after that so level 20 was around 5-6 years of campaigning and after level 12 you were kind of on your own anyway.

If you wanted to level up faster DMs could give out more xp or treasure to accelerate the progress. Fighter peaked in power relative to the other classes in 2nd ed were it was generally thought to be the 2nd most powerful class after the wizard (using core rules). But it varied as to what rules the DM used/allowed as any class could suck the big one including wizards if the DM chose those options like low magic world where magic takes 10 times as long to cast. Is the fighter a core fighter, fighter with weapon specialization or fighter using the fighters handbook or fighter using combat and tactics and the grand mastery rules. Also the DM could allow warriors with a high intelligence to get bonus feats (weapon proficinencies) basically instead of extra skills like 3rd ed allowed.

TSR era books were big on world building and if for example you were duplicating ancient Rome or Greece a wizard could be out right banned and the cleric is replaced by a priest who was generally weaker than the core cleric or came with severe restrictions like a Christian priest and the whole though shalt not kill thing. Similar thing in 1st ed and if the DM allowed use of Unearthed Arcana or not or if weapon speed rules were used in either edition. On the other end of the spectrum 2nd ed Forgotten Realm priests were often more powerful than Wizards.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Not in OSR D&D

Which is why I explicitly said I was referring to 3.x.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yes charges were fun.

Tracking charges weren't fun though. Maybe a random roll based on the number of charges it could have would be interesting. For example, instead of 100 charges in a wand when you use it you roll a d% and if you roll 01 then the charges are depleted.

The real fun part of charges is that found charged items had a random number of charges and the finder didn't know how many were left.

ALAKAZAMM!!........... oh come on! not now!!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The real fun part of charges is that found charged items had a random number of charges and the finder didn't know how many were left.

ALAKAZAMM!!........... oh come on! not now!!

I tried to 'hide' items until identified a few times, but it never worked for us. I remember once when I tried to hide a +1 long sword +2 vs XYZ and +3 Vs ABC it was a night mare...

hiding charges was even worse...

most games I play and run (since the 90's) we just say "Your character doesn't know but you track X"

 

[Dausuul]

Since everything else is different ass well no wepaon specialization for fighters, no real vancian spells for the spell casters, no increasing numbers for the classes like attacks, saves etc at what point can you claim with a straight face it is the same game? Every class is only remotely based on what came before.

Of course it's not the same game as 1E. If it were the same game, why would anyone pay top dollar for a 5E Player's Handbook when they could just download OSRIC or grab a used 1E PHB off eBay? And why would 2E, 3E, 4E, or BD&D fans have any interest in it?

I admit there aren't a lot of distinctly AD&D elements in 5E. That's because most of the best stuff from AD&D was kept on into 3E, so it's not unique to AD&D. The biggest thing 5E draws from old-school gaming is lack of rules--stripping out a lot of cruft from later editions. For example, wizards no longer have a zillion bonus spells from specialization and ability scores, so with the exception of cantrips, their supply of magic has been reduced to AD&D levels. Indeed, high-level 5E wizards have even fewer spells than their AD&D counterparts at the same level.

So, what will I miss from AD&D? Not a lot, but a few things:

• Saving throws with bonuses that scale by level, but fixed DCs*. This was a really clever idea. It undergirds the whole notion of "save-or-X" spells where X gets nastier as the spell level increases. At low levels, your "save-or-X" spells have a high chance of success (because the low-level target has crappy saves), but the effect is limited (because it's a low-level spell). At high levels, your "save-or-X" spells have potent effects, but the target is much more likely to make its saving throw. As a side benefit, it makes saving throws simpler to resolve.
• Spells resolving after all other actions for the round are complete, so that an enemy can use its action to disrupt or evade the spell. This gives the "concentrate on casting" requirement real teeth. In 3E it was a joke, in 4E it didn't even exist, and as far as I can tell it's still gone in 5E.
• The notion of armor type mattering beyond simple AC. I'm not advocating the return of "weapon types versus armor class," but I do like the idea that (for example) chain mail offers good protection from a scimitar, but very little from a mace. If that could be implemented in a clean, simple way, it'd be nice to have another dimension to armor.
• Gygaxian prose... wait, no, I'm not going to miss that at all. While I enjoy big obscure words as much as the next geek, Gygax was an awful writer. *ducks*
• The ability to create and command armies of undead, not just small gangs. I recognize that there are major balance issues around being able to bring a legion of skeletons to a dungeon, but I hope there will be a "dominions and mass combat" module where being a necromancer-overlord is an option.
• A scattering of random quirky tables... wait, no, I'm not going to miss these either, because it looks like 5E will have them. There's a Potion Miscibility table in the most recent playtest doc.

[size=-2]*Translating into 5E terms, of course. In actual AD&D, your saves were written out as target numbers you had to beat on a straight d20 roll.[/size]

 

[Obryn]

I take it you never played an illusionist or druid. Consider: A magic user gets his max spell level at 18th level and 3,000,001 exp. An illusionist at 14th level and 1,320,001 exp. Don't make the mistake that the illusionist and druid, and the cleric for that matter, being limited to level 7 spells is a penalty. It is not, it is a bonus. For instance, the illusionist gets maze as a level 5 spell (10th level/220,000 exp, for the the magic user, it's level 8 (16th level/2,250,001. Also, color spray trumps the magic user's sleep spell in spades, and hypnotism is the cleric's command spell on steroids.

Also, if you're crazy enough to allow everything from Unearthed Arcana, let's not forget Color Orb, a humble 1st level spell that becomes Save or Die once your Illusionist is high enough level. It stays a 1st level spell though, so...