D&D 5E What I want: 17 books or book series (and two boxes) for a Third Golden Age

[Olaf the Stout]

I'm not following you. I stopped following D&D once 3.5 came. What repercussions do you mean?

I didn't buy into 4E (I had that much product for 3.5E and had no issues with the ruleset at the time, so my group stuck with that), so I may be off-base, but I believe that WotC kind of told people that they got rid of the bits of 3.5E that sucked and replaced them with awesome stuff for 4E.

People that liked some of the stuff that was removed (i.e. Vancian magic) were (rightfully IMO) offended by that attitude. As a result, those people stuck with 3.5E or moved to other systems. So they basically alienated a segment of potential 4E players from the get-go.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Thanks for your pros and cons Jester Canuck.

This is pretty much just D&D Basic. Why have an expensive rulebook when you can have a free PDF?
Still, a cheap softcover digest version wouldn't be a bad product, but less appealing than the Starter Set (or similar product).

Right. A softcover, black and white digest version. I like the Basic Rules. Yet most people besides me want to have more than 4 classes. I'm okay with it since I was raised on BECMI.

Plus, so many of the fans of the world already have all the content, so there's little you can do but repackage what they already have. And so many worlds underwent changes (Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Planescape), which were unpopular, so it's hard to know if you should reflect the changes, try and "fix" the setting, ignore the changes, or just go for an idealized period.
Really... the best way to handle settings might be small rules updates online (like the e-magazines) and bundles of the PDFs on DnDClassics.com

I suggest that when a 5e worldbook comes out, simultaneously release the entire bundle of PDFs for that world as free downloads.

Content for the sake of content. This isn't particularly healthy for the game and makes running the game challenging for the DM who needs to be ready for all this rules content.

Yeah but WotC's going to do it anyway with a splatbook every few months. So might as well do it systematically and thoroughly.

Forgoing balance would be a huge mistake, as people need to play with the content. Releasing several books of broken, poorly designed classes would seriously damage people's games.

I see your point. I have a different perspective in that tournament-style, min-max gameplay has never been a factor among me and my few gaming friends. I realize a lot of people of this generation is into that. I suppose your right that it'd be better if the classes were balanced for use in organized play, even though it's not my thing. Hopefully there's a method for designing a balanced 5E class in the DMG.

I think WotC is pretty worried about keeping their current staffing numbers, let alone hiring new people.

I mean contracting the ENWorld monster guy to write the Monstrous Compendiums--not necessarily as a Hasbro staffer with a 401K.

Grand History of the Realms filled an entire book. This would be one hefty tome that would appeal to only a small number of people.

Unlike the other compendiums, this wouldn't have every single timeline entry for every world. It would focus on the key events. The main things it would do is:

1) Povide a coherent meta-mythology of the Great Wheel (and the Phlogiston, or whatever the galaxy of the Material Plane is called). From the beginning of time (Io the Ninefold Dragon), up to the re-start dates for the re-booted settings. Beyond the re-start dates, all known "future" timeline events would be considered provisional or alternate timelines.

2) Correlate the timelines of the different worlds (the various discrepancies can be regularized by the fact that time can flow slower or faster when passing into the Mists of Ravenloft (a main source of inter-world connection), or by retconning some events as having occurred on alternate timelines.)

3) Correlate the timeline of those worlds with D&D Earth (which would have several alternate timelines, some of which are set in the past (Age of Adventure) or future (Star*Drive).)

I would like to see some side rulesets of the 5e system. But I doubt the D&D team has the staff to manage two separate game systems at once. They can't even release the 5e core rules and adventures at the same time...

Perhaps you're right. Like you say, it could be contracted out.

Given the existence of Wikipedia, providing all the history you need, I'm not sure how this would sell.

Same could be said about the entire d20 Modern game and all its Campaign Models. Tying the culture books into all the relevant D&D Worlds would bring in more sales.

This kinda exists already. It's called Campaign Coins. They're freakin' expensive.

Thanks for the heads up. I see they are expensive. I don't know what those are made of, but the D&D coins might just be aluminum and brass.

WotC could certainly partner with them though. It's a little hard to justify, not when you can just get gold painted plastic coins from a dollar store.

Yeah but these would be real Ansalonian steel pieces, Cormyr gold lions, Zakharan dinars, Gond bells, Karameikan kopecs, Athasian ceramic pieces, gold orbs from the Free City of Greyhawk, and the Sigil gold tori and silver möbiuses.

 

[The Hitcher]

Hahaha, this thread is great! None of those books will happen in a million years (for which I'm very grateful), but I'm glad people like you are around. D&D fandom is a fascinating place!

 

[The Shadow]

What's wrong with ponies?

There's nothing wrong with ponies at all. There's lots of problems wishing for ponies when your parents can't afford one and you have no conception of what it will take to take care of one.

You guys are the D&D business managers? I've noticed in this and other threads how many D&D gamers proudly speak as if they're a Hasbro business manager. They've taken some bits and pieces of Dancey's analysis of TSR's failures in the 1990s, and turned them into some sort of tired dogma.

My post had no reference to Ryan Dancey at all. It dealt with simple economic common sense.

If you perceived me to be speaking proudly or dogmatically, your perception is in error. I was speaking from the point of view of someone who runs a business. It is a business vastly smaller than WotC, to be sure, but still gives one a certain perspective.

So what? As Whizbang D. suggests, these products could just as well be done through a kickstarter. Problem solved! Or as subcontracted side-items, like those pocket-size versions of the AD&D rulebooks which came out awhile back. Where there's an interest, there's a way.

I already said I'd be glad to see some of your ideas Kickstarted. Just so long as you are prepared to see some of them, at best, fail to get funded.

Whether I'm a customer of the D&D business or whether I'm a co-creator of the D&D culture, it's not my role to pre-censor my desire for what I personally would like see for D&D. I'm not the D&D business manager. I'm not supposed to feel all sheepish and stay quiet because some or all what I'd prefer to see may or may not fit into the business plan. One thing's certain: If I don't voice what I'd like to see, my voice will not be considered. Mike Mearls and Hasbro aren't mindreaders.

I don't see anyone censoring you. I see people criticizing your ideas and you gratuitously insulting them in return.

I never asked for these to be hardcover. The 2E Spell Compendiums were softcover. I prefer softcover.

Though I understand Mearls' team putting a lot of love into making three heirloom-quality core rulebooks, for the straightforward reference books (such as the Spell Compendium) hardly any art is necessary. The Monstrous Compendium series would be illustration heavy, but it'd all be clip art from previous editions.

I'm fine with all black & white interiors too.

That makes things a tad more realistic, yes. You want a relatively inexpensive pony and will recruit your friends to help take care of it.

Tesla Motors: "All Our Patent Are Belong to You".

Know what Tesla Motors didn't do? They didn't say you could drive last year's model off the lot for free.

Post-TSR, pre-Hasbro WotC: Their game system property was forked over for free. The worldsetting property was not.

Yes, they licensed out their game mechanics, which can't be copyrighted. It was a clever and generous move.

They did not put out their intellectual property with an open license, as that would have been suicidal.

And you're going far beyond suggesting that they license out their IP... you're suggesting putting it in the *public domain*. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't have to be to see that those are staggeringly different things. If you don't see the difference, I really don't know what else to say to you.

I'm suggesting opening the out-of-print worldsetting IP so as to fuel sales of the 5e worldbooks and novels, in the same way that sales of the 3.0 corebooks were fueled by opening the game system IP.

'In the same way'? One of these things is not like the others. What mechanism are you suggesting for the release of a product they currently sell at a modest clip into the public domain to increase sales of their current corebooks?

If Dancey or anyone had suggested to TSR in 1994 that they open the AD&D game system intellectual property "for free", they would've be laughed at, and shouted down by the D&D aficionados: "How dare you express how you would like to see the AD&D game culture evolve. You won't like the consequences. Be afraid. Be very afraid. TSR will go out of business if they open their IP. The tighter something is held, the more successful it will be."

Dude. Dial it down, will you? You seem to have this mental image of yourself as this bold innovator and everyone else as obscurantist cranks who don't appreciate your genius, or else corporate tools who mindlessly spout the WotC line.

Maybe people just, you know, disagree with you? Maybe they give actual reasons for their disagreement? Maybe you should address those actual reasons instead of speculating about their inner mental life?

 

[Sunseeker]

To put it succinctly, if you or WOTC were offering any of those products, I would have no interest in purchasing them. If D&D was being offered in the formats you prefer, I would not purchase them either.

Golden Ages are rarely achieved by replaying the hits of the past.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

If you need all of these to make you happy...

At a certain point in life, I learned the difference between a want and a need. Both are important. I don't suppose anyone is participating in this forum to share about the hard needs of food, clothing, shelter, and transportation. Wants/desires can be expressed too.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

There's nothing wrong with ponies at all. There's lots of problems wishing for ponies when your parents can't afford one and you have no conception of what it will take to take care of one.

Shadow, who's the one speaking with an insulting tone?

I was speaking from the point of view of someone who runs a business.

Okay, I respect that.

I already said I'd be glad to see some of your ideas Kickstarted. Just so long as you are prepared to see some of them, at best, fail to get funded.

The Free Culture way accepts that.

I don't see anyone censoring you.

I spoke of the prevailing self-censoring mindest I have experienced in this community, and the seeming impulse to press that self-censoring mindset onto me.

I see people criticizing your ideas and you gratuitously insulting them in return.

It could just as well be said like this:

"I see people insulting your ideas and you gratuitously criticizing them in return." ("Insult" is a loaded word, while "criticize", at least in this community, is not.)

Know what Tesla Motors didn't do? They didn't say you could drive last year's model off the lot for free.

Digital PDF IP has some qualitative and practical differences from an automobile.

Yes, they licensed out their game mechanics, which can't be copyrighted.

Yes, the OSR culture has brought out the distinction that game mechanics can't be copyrighted. The thing is, before the Open Game culture came, hardly anyone would actually try to exercise their right to make game mechanics which compatibly mimicked AD&D, out of fear of a lawsuit from TSR. This fear became a self-censoring reality. Even if self-publishers or third parties could theoretically and legallyl justify making adventures or sourcebooks which were implicitly (but not explicitly) comptable with AD&D2E, it just didn't happen.

It was a clever and generous move.

Yes clever *and* generous. Not only generous. If WotC had not released 3E as an Open Game, the 3e era would not have witnessed such a spectacular renaissance of interest in TRPGs and D&D. I'm no business manager, but I suspect that 3E corebook sales would have been less without Freeport, Necromancer Games, and all the rest of the d20 third party wave--the good, the bad, and the ugly.

They did not put out their intellectual property with an open license, as that would have been suicidal.

The same stark words would've been said by TSR or a TSR aficionado in regard to a suggestion of putting out their AD&D2E game system (intellectual property) with an open license.

And you're going far beyond suggesting that they license out their IP... you're suggesting putting it in the *public domain*. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't have to be to see that those are staggeringly different things. If you don't see the difference, I really don't know what else to say to you.

I see the difference.

'In the same way'? One of these things is not like the others.

Okay, in a similar way. Public Domain/Free Culture is clearly a step beyond Open Game License. The similarity is using that Open strategy to evoke "un-controlled" (not contracted) third party and self-publishing to fuel sales of the Hasbro-produced basic texts, in this case Worldbooks, not just the Rulebooks.

What mechanism are you suggesting for the release of a product they currently sell at a modest clip into the public domain to increase sales of their current corebooks?

I'm suggesting the mechanism of a ceremonial release of each world's out-of-print IP at the same time as Hasbro/WotC releases the 5E worldbook for that campaign setting.

As I said in the earlier thread, that's the most unequivocably Open mechanism for developing a culture of Open Worlds which anyone (including for-profit enterprises) can contribute to--which has, as far as I know, never been done before. It's new.

Then anyone could publish their own version of the published D&D worlds which have played such a role in the imaginations of our gaming generation. There'd be the Eric Mona's World of Greyhawk, Bruce Heard's World of Mystara, Monte Cook's Planescape, and hundreds more. Since Hasbro has perhaps the most skilled FR development team and the most resources (next to Paizo), their 5E worldbooks (which wouldn't be released into the Free Culture Domain until "sixth edition") would serve as basic texts for this blossoming of Open Worlds.

Your question evokes me to suggest this:

I suggest Hasbro try it out on only one D&D World at first. There is one major D&D World which had its own product line, but which is not mentioned in the 5E Basic Rules. Presumably that implies it is the least valued IP.

That world is Birthright. Not a spectacular world. A nice medieval fantasy world, with some cool dominion rules. Has some real world culture parallels: Khinasi (Middle Eastern), Brecht (Central European), Rjurik (Norse), Anuirean (Western European), and Vos (Eastern European).

Has a beautiful map.

I propose that Hasbro/WotC open this guy up as an experimental Free Culture sandbox. Put the Free Culture logo(s) on it. Let it go.

Let any individual or enterprise reprint the Birthright books as is. Or with their own game stats plugged in (Labyrinth Lord, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Pathfinder). Or mixed with their own world's IP. Since only the continent of Cerilia is fully mapped, the rest of the planet of Aebrynis could look drastically different from different publishers. Each would be an alternate, parallel Aebrynis. Videogames. Novels. Anything.

Release the entire Birthright corpus as Free Culture PDFs: 5 boxed sets, 21 sourcebooks, 5 adventures, and 6 novels. The entire text, proper names, art, and trade dress. Everything except the words "D&D" and few other Product Identity bits (such as "beholder" and "illithid") which are embedded in Birthright books, but which Hasbro wants to hold onto. Even free the few Birthright articles and adventures from DRAGON and DUNGEON magazine too, and as much of the IP of the Birthright video game as is held by Hasbro/WotC.

See how the experiment turns out. If it turns out to be whimper. No harm done. Then I'll admit that Free Culture is not yet a fitting match for the D&D and TRPG culture.

If something interesting happens, then...

Dude. Dial it down, will you?

I'm willing to dial the sharpness down. Here's where I'm coming from: I have experienced that after sharing what I'd like to see happen with D&D, about 90% of the responders are 100% negative and sarcastic (insulting). Someone will go through and respond to nearly everything I suggested, with droll critiques about how each one is impossible. Only a few say something positive or constructive. It's like wading into a room of mopey people. (I used to be more mopey myself.)

And the thing is, I suspect that, for the majority of these product proposals, if they had been announced by Mike Mearls at GENCON as upcoming products, the very same individuals wouldn't bat an eye.

On the contrary, if I'd then (as a fellow aficionado) made a wish list which said: "I want two DM screens, some acrylic chits, spell cards (really?), a Forgotten Realms adventure path, a Return to the Return of the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure path, and an Elemental Evil splatbook, the same individuals would give a list of snide, sarcastic critiques about how each one is impossible, and that I'm a pony-wishing dreamer to even voice my preference.

Now, that doesn't rile up my feelings--I don't expect everyone to like me--yet that's where my sharp responses come from. Anyway, you remind me to empathize--I remember when I thought sarcasm was a good thing.

Maybe people just, you know, disagree with you?

That's fine. Despite the sharp words, I have some gratitude that even the one-sided critiques help me understand where people are coming from.

Maybe they give actual reasons for their disagreement? Maybe you should address those actual reasons

I have usually addressed the actual reasons of disagreement expressed by each poster.

instead of speculating about their inner mental life?

I'm definitely looking forward to a healthier D&D culture.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

To put it succinctly, if you or WOTC were offering any of those products, I would have no interest in purchasing them. If D&D was being offered in the formats you prefer, I would not purchase them either.

Not everyone has the same interests as me.

Golden Ages are rarely achieved by replaying the hits of the past.

Are you speaking as a supporter of the existing 5E product strategy, or as someone who is not interested in that?

Forgotten Realms is the core adventure setting. A hit of the past.

The D&D Multiverse is returning as a coherent Great Wheel. A hit of the past.

All the main published worlds (except Birthright), including the Greyhawk, Mystara, and Dragonlance oldies, are mentioned in the Basic Rules. A hit of the past.

Quotes from the FR and Dragonlance novels appear in the Basic Rules and PHB for the first time. A hit of the past.

4E didn't replay the past. It invented a new setting. It was not so much of a hit.

I'm all for releasing a new D&D setting every year, and releasing totally new PC races, classes, spells (beyond incarnum!), magic items, and monsters...once the gigantic, undigested thousands of existing in-game splat has been quickly and densely updated and integrated into the 5E Multiverse. Get these reference compendiums out during the next 3 years, and then I'd be up for totally new things.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

this thread is great!

Why thank you!

 

[Mirtek]

And the thing is, I suspect that, for the majority of these product proposals, if they had been announced by Mike Mearls at GENCON as upcoming products, the very same individuals wouldn't bat an eye.

A very bold assumption. Silly products become no less silly if WotC were crazy enough to announce them. Sorry some of your items would be hard pressed to sell a tripple digit number of copies