D&D 5E What If 5E Becomes a Single-Edition-Pleaser?

[Mark CMG]

I've been following as much of the discussion as I can over the last week here and elsewhere and I'm noting a number of people who either stonewall discussions that stray from the ideals of their preferred edition or outright pile on threads, along with other like-minded folk, when any aspect of their preferred edition is questioned or tagged as faulty (in opinion or fact). So my question is, what if the feedback given to WotC designers results in a 5E that simply only pleases the fans of any single previous edition of the game? Also, will WotC or the community be served by a process that produces such a game? And lastly, what are the best and worse case scenarios of such a result?


(Please let's avoid pointing fingers at any specific people or editions, as if that didn't go without saying.)

 

[was]

reunification...its a good thing.
...Seriously though, I think the designing folks know how much is riding on this new edition and they'll put out a decent product that satisfies the majority of folks. Some might not be 100% on a couple of things but I think they'll be good with the overall product.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

A certain amount of the negative side of that is inevitable. But likewise, I doubt they will totally miss out, either. After all, people who post tend to be more vocal than those that out there playing. For every person potentially building a grudge here, there are many out there that just want a new version that has craft rules or rules for building a keep or whatever. You could satisfy a lot of them with add ons to 3E or 4E. So certainly a new edition that does even more will at least get them to pay attention.

So worse case in your scenario is that they only get the easy to get new customers, and not very firmly, either. You'll see a quicker drop in sales than you would with something more engaging, like a movie that isn't a complete stinker, but whose word of mouth hurts the followup weeks.

The real theoretical worse case is that the old D&Ders, 2E guys, 3E/3.5/PF guys, and 4E/Essential guys all get their points across, but the effort to try to accommodate all of them aims too high--and produces a mishmash that doesn't even objectively work, let alone please anyone. I'm not worried about that.

Best case either way is that WotC is smart enough to ferret out the useful informaton presented and make a solid game. And I've got better than usual hopes because of the "version 3.0" rule invented for Microsoft software. MS never gets it right until the third full version. (And most software companies suffer from this somewhat.) There are lots of complicated reasons why this has some merit, but mainly it is because it takes two full cycles "out in the wild" to really figure out what the heck the customers want and need. I see enough of the version 1 and 2 software mistakes in WotC's first two tries with D&D to think this might work for games, too.

On the negative side, that means skill challenges would not be perfected until 6E, and anything introduced totally new in 5E will start fully working in another decade or so. Fortunately, it isn't an ironclad rule, and wide playtesting is the main way you fight the problem.

 

[Tallifer]

1. If the Fifth Edition is basically AD&D plus 3rd edition, then I will just keep playing Fourth Edition, and so will many of my friends.

2. On the other hand, if it becomes apparent to the designers that the Pathfinder and Old School Renaissance players cannot be appeased, then I hope the Fifth Edition will just be a new and improved Fourth Edition.

3. In a perfect world, the intended modularity would work so that everyone gets the game they want. However many groups would still be internally divided as to content and options.

 

[foolish_mortals]

are they even printing up the 4th edition books anymore? What are you going to do when yours start to fall apart?

foolish_mortals

 

[enrious]

are they even printing up the 4th edition books anymore? What are you going to do when yours start to fall apart?

foolish_mortals

There are still plenty of 4e books available from WotC and distributors.

No reason to Chicken Little at this stage.

 

[trancejeremy]

There is a real possibility it won't please fans of any edition.

Just to make an example - look at Van Halen. You used to have people who were fans of David Lee Roth, then fans of the Sammy Hagar era.

But now that DLR is back, well you get people complaining because Wolfgang Van Halen is on bass, not Michael Anthony.

 

[Ainamacar]

There is a real possibility it won't please fans of any edition.

Just to make an example - look at Van Halen. You used to have people who were fans of David Lee Roth, then fans of the Sammy Hagar era.

But now that DLR is back, well you get people complaining because Wolfgang Van Halen is on bass, not Michael Anthony.

Sure, but Van Halen isn't modular. If it were you could make a phone call and the guy you want would show up at the stadium.

(Well, IMHO, long-term changes in the roster are more analogous to traditional edition switches.)

 

[Croesus]

There is a real possibility it won't please fans of any edition.

Which is one reason why I don't believe pleasing us should be their primary goal. IMNSHO, they should have the following design priniciples:

1. The game should feel like D&D, which means keeping a number of sacred cows. By all means, they should streamline those elements to improve the play experience, but at its core, the game has to have the right feel.

2. The core game should be simple enough that new players, without an experienced player as a teacher, can learn and play the game. Additional complexity to satisfy us grognards can be optional/modular.

3. Related to point 2, keep the core rules short, simple, focused on playing the game. Playing is what hooks new players. Once someone is hooked, then the optional rules for intricate builds can be added. Once someone is hooked, then try to sell them the huge multi-hundred page advanced rulebooks.

We all realize that this is a very small niche hobby. And it has been steadily shrinking since the 3.x heydays. The smaller this niche, the harder it is to find players, the more the niche shrinks. WOTC needs to focus on the new folks, while keeping the game true to its roots.

If they focus on these elements, I firmly believe most of us who've played the game for years (decades) will enjoy the game. If, on the other hand, they focus only on pleasing us old-timers, I also firmly believe they'll just produce another 4E - something that appeals to a fraction of the current base.

 

[Mark CMG]

Sure but we're getting a bit off track here. The question in the OP takes into consideration that there are certain ideas individuals have regarding what they think will bring about unity. That's a laudable goal that I support. But the questions here are -

(. . .) what if the feedback given to WotC designers results in a 5E that simply only pleases the fans of any single previous edition of the game? Also, will WotC or the community be served by a process that produces such a game? And lastly, what are the best and worse case scenarios of such a result?

 

[Croesus]

...what if the feedback given to WotC designers results in a 5E that simply only pleases the fans of any single previous edition of the game?

They'll end up with a new version no more successful than 4E, and possibly much less so.

Also, will WotC or the community be served by a process that produces such a game?

Nope.

And lastly, what are the best and worse case scenarios of such a result?

Since we won't know until the game has been released, I figure I might as well assume they'll avoid a train wreck like this and instead produce the game they've been talking about - one which appeals to a wide spectrum of new and former players. [fingers crossed]

 

[Roland55]

It could certainly happen -- but I doubt that it will. I think there are enough designers at WOTC with real experience and serious intent; they won't let this occur.

In fact, I'd be surprised if they weren't already on the look-out for this sort of outcome.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The best case is they produce the goods and a game that simultaneously plays like OD&D, AD&D Rules Cyclopedia, 3.x and 4e, for any version of the above.
Now I an not convinced that this is possible. So I think that the realistic best prospect is a game that feels line core AD&D, Rules Cyclopedia, 3.x and 4 depending on the options chosen. I think that even at best there will be vocal dissatisfied players upset that blah from book blahblah is missing, or it does not feel right, etc.

The worst is that the wrong element are listened to and that the edition focuses too much in that direction leading to its rejection by fans of other editions. This is most likely if that edition's feel matched most closely with the biases of the desginers.

Now I do not think that this is very likely but would be a total disaster for WoTC and pretty much anyone that is looking forward to this but is not a fan of Pathfinder. the reason I am pickin out Pathfinder here is that Pathfinder is independantly supported, os its fans are covered so to speak.

The other way it could go badly wrong for WoTC is if they have inaccuretely mapped out the size of the edition populations.

Right now we have a number of populations of different sizes playing different editions of D&D. Some are playing the original games, some games produced by others that fit the feel of editions of D&D (e.g. the retro-clones and Pathfinder).

So a key question for WoTC is how big are these populations and how much corssover occurs. The final game should most please the largest population but not so much as to alienate the others. the other element is what aspect is it that binds these populations to their chosen version and can it be addressed simultaneously with the key attractors of fans of the other editions.

If they can indentify the relevant populations and the key elements that bind these populations to their beloved edition. Address that attraction across all the editions then they will have a success but if they mis-identify the poulations or the essential elements that attract a group to their prefered edition they coould produce a game that is poorly supported.

The downside to WoTC if they get it wrong is that the D&D division gets shut down. The downside to the community is that D&D gets shut down. Pathfinder and the OSR becomes what is left of D&D.

Fans of Pathfinder are in a relatively strong position on this, however, Erik Mona has stated here that he believes that the current edition of D&D is still the primary vehicle of introduction of new blood into tttrpgs. I don't know if he still holds that view or if he believes that Pazio is now strong enough to take up the slack if WoTC D&D dissappears. If he still holds his previous position then a failure of 5e is Ryan Dancy's prophecy of doom fulfilled.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

are they even printing up the 4th edition books anymore? What are you going to do when yours start to fall apart?

foolish_mortals

I'll jump into the same hole into which all people jumped whose 1e AD&D corebooks fell appart.

Heard there's good gaming down there.

 

[Spinachcat]

So my question is, what if the feedback given to WotC designers results in a 5E that simply only pleases the fans of any single previous edition of the game? Also, will WotC or the community be served by a process that produces such a game? And lastly, what are the best and worse case scenarios of such a result?

DDXP will introduce the core 5e system in 2 weeks. Its doubtful that the community playtesting will do much more than a few cosmetic changes to the direction WotC has already chosen.

What are you going to do when yours start to fall apart?

eBay!!!

You can easily find good condition books from 1977. I am sure eBay will have good condition 4e books in 2030 and beyond.

There is a real possibility it won't please fans of any edition.

It's guaranteed.

There are always gamers who say "I only play Xe" and they never convert to the new edition. Old Schoolers have the OSR and 3ers have Paizo and 4ers will probably have some upstart company in a few months.

BTW, it won't surprise me that Paizo launches its own 4.1e.

Then there are the gamers who try new editions for a few months and then return to their previous favorite edition. The only long term customers are those gamers who enjoy switching editions every 5 years. That's why the focus has to be on bringing fresh meat into the hobby.

WotC's mistake with 4e was skipping the heavy marketing and advertising necessary to bring in enough new gamers to make up for those lost during edition changes. If they don't devote significant resources to promoting 5e, then they will have the same financial problems as with 4e.

 

[TrippyHippy]

It can be done.

I remember that Traveller had all sorts of problems and splits from old editions. Mongoose did do a pretty good job of bringing the essential original game back in print to new time gamers. There are still detractors - inevitably - but I think the evidence of it's success is that it is still going strong, whereas D&D4th has had...let's just say, issues in appealing to it's broadbased fanbase.

My view is that D&D needs to go back to basics, having a good look at 1st edition primarily. This is not to say that 1st edition was by any means perfect, but people did play it in thousands. What was it doing right? Then move on to how it can be built on, taking ideas from any editions (including 4th) that followed, but steadily building it into a coherant, complete system.

 

[SSquirrel]

are they even printing up the 4th edition books anymore? What are you going to do when yours start to fall apart?

foolish_mortals

Not to mention all the existing torrents and places like Ebay and Half Price Books. If people want the books, they will find them in some fashion.