What, If Anything, Might be Wrong with the Warblade?

[hong]

WRT is so incredibly brokenly powerful that it is easily worth their 12th-level feat, though. And yes, it works great with stun--if you keep having the Swooping Dragon Attack guy go with WRT, you can perma-auto-stun an entire team of enemies

How would the following ways of nerfing White Raven Tactics fly:

- Any given character can only gain the benefit once per turn
- As above, but once per encounter
- Only grants an extra attack, rather than a full turn
- Increase prereq to 2 WR maneuvers

 

[Rystil Arden]

How would the following ways of nerfing White Raven Tactics fly:

- Any given character can only gain the benefit once per turn
- As above, but once per encounter
- Only grants an extra attack, rather than a full turn
- Increase prereq to 2 WR maneuvers

Make it grant only an extra attack and that fixes it. It's still quite good (Swift Action Snake's Quickness now!), but it doesn't allow the double-team stuff. The others ameliorate it by not letting you do it as many times, but it's still terribly powerful.

 

[KerlanRayne]

You can download (from the WotC site) all the maneuvers and stances here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Yes, that is a very helpful link. They also posted the entire Warblade class here if you want to take a look at it.

KerlanRayne

 

[blargney the second]

White Raven Tactics was a problematic maneuver when we tried it in play, so we simply removed it from our games.

 

[jasin]

While I would not mind everyone having a similar option I am under the impression that many people find the players handbook 2 a necissary addition to the game to make fighters better.

IMO, PHB2 makes all melee type better, which is a good thing, but doesn't really help the fighter in the fighter vs. warblade comparison.

In that book there are retraining rules for basically anything.

But IIRC, retraining is supposed to the exception rather than the norm.

Weapon aptitude lets you practice a bit in the morning with the mace if you expect to be fighting skeletons, then tomorrow you can practice a bit with the bow if you expect to be hunting harpies.

It is a nice ability though. I would look at it as a template for similar abilities for everyone however. Reduce the chance of people being forced to keep any poor choices made in the past and even have a mechanical way of demonstrating certain character growth aspects.

IMO, retraining should be kept as an exception, with a healthy dose of meta-game agreement. "You picked Stealthy for your fighter, and now you realize you don't want it? OK, sure, we'll work something out."

 

[Slaved]

Make it grant only an extra attack and that fixes it. It's still quite good (Swift Action Snake's Quickness now!), but it doesn't allow the double-team stuff. The others ameliorate it by not letting you do it as many times, but it's still terribly powerful.

So if someone had a spell where you got an extra attack right now but skipped your next turn that would be good enough for you? At what levels would it be useful? I am guessing mostly only under about level 5 or so.

There are not many situations or characters that I have played where I would not choose to resist. I would be trying to use that spell offensively by casting it on enemy forces A mass version would be interesting in quite a few fights. Get reach for your guys, have them stand outside of the reach of others and spam that spell. Your guys get an extra attack, the other guys who fail their save do nothing.

Snakes swiftness is much better than this proposed option since you do not miss your next turn (right?).

Although even that comparison is a bit off. Sometimes white raven tactics simply will not help you due to how the initiative order is set up. You can play with the initiative order with a bit of planning of course but that can and will bite you back on occasion.

But IIRC, retraining is supposed to the exception rather than the norm.

Considering how often I would expect the aptitude to come up the two come out mostly the same over all. I do not see any problem.

 

[Nail]

How does the feat work?

The feat is called Martial Study (or Martial Stance), and it allows you to select one manuever (or stance), so long as you meet the manuever's prerequisites.

 

[Nail]

Considering how often I would expect the aptitude to come up the two come out mostly the same over all. I do not see any problem.

If the option of Weapon Aptitude wouldn't come up, why not remove the ability from the class?

 

[hong]

So if someone had a spell where you got an extra attack right now but skipped your next turn that would be good enough for you? At what levels would it be useful? I am guessing mostly only under about level 5 or so.

Whether or not that's good for a spell, it would make sense for a maneuver, since they generally don't scale with level. You could make a "greater White Raven tactics" maneuver that grants 2 attacks, or an extra standard action, at higher level if you wanted a more potent version.

 

[Slaved]

If the option of Weapon Aptitude wouldn't come up, why not remove the ability from the class?

Not coming up, coming up seldomly, and being a good/bad idea for an ability to have are three different things.

I expect it to come up rarely and mostly thematically more than anything else. When it does come up it is much simpler than the retraining rules which is nice.

The ability is great and I think it should be expanded to cover more things and be an option for everyone.

Whether or not that's good for a spell, it would make sense for a maneuver

It would likely be a bad spell for casting on your own party in many cases, this much I think most people would agree is true.

Make sense for a maneuver? Of course, but then many things would make sense for a maneuver so why is that relevant?

I do not feel that it is a decent replacement for this ability though. It does not simulate what it currently does very well, it is essentially a completely different ability. If you wish to get rid of it fine, if you wish to add in the suggestion above that is fine too, but it is not really a nerfed version of the original to bring it into line with some balance issue in mind.

That is just semantics though. As a new maneuver the one suggested would indeed work, although it is obviously a worse version of the maneuver that already exists which gives extra attacks. I do not recall what level that one is though.

I think that a nerf that anyone could only be effected once by the ability in any given combat would shore up most everyones troubles with it while still leaving the fun parts of the ability intact. I could even see a lower level version that could be used multiple times on anyone but each time it was used your buddy lost hit points equal to the change in initiative number. The possibility of a later mass version with an evil overlord and minions is just too fun to pass up!