What, If Anything, Might be Wrong with the Warblade?

[Nail]

Eh. IIRC you instituted that change to the warblade immediately on reading the book, without seeing it in play.

We discussed it (the class) first, yes. We've since "seen it in play". Should I have waited a few levels first?

 

[hong]

Read again what Jasin was asking: did anyone try the warblade AS-IS, before making changes to it.

 

[Nail]

Read again what Jasin was asking: did anyone try the warblade AS-IS, before making changes to it.

Reading? A mere technicality, my good man. We were going to play the WB, but we discussed what it looked like before we introduced it. We decided that the d12 HD, for example, was just adding insult to injury (to the Ftr), so we changed it. Etc.

 

[hong]

Reading? A mere technicality, my good man. We were going to play the WB, but we discussed what it looked like before we introduced it. We decided that the d12 HD, for example, was just adding insult to injury (to the Ftr), so we changed it. Etc.

IOW, no, you didn't try the warblade as-is before changing it. Sheesh!

 

[Slaved]

I'm not sure that's all that tough to get, actually. And he's not done Blade Meditiation....yet!

While it is doable I would say it is not really easy. Or at least it takes a significant amount of resource allotment.

By definition any build which is possible can be done. I do not know what the monk had to give up to get the +2 or how expensive the other +1 was but the rest is a level adjustment, a good amount of the point buy points, a feat, and 9 ranks.

Do not get me wrong, the number looks very nice indeed! What would you view as being tough however?

Hopefully the guy will hit over 30 by level 10 considering how much he is putting into it.

 

[Cactot]

For the record, I'm the GM of a Warblade that's been playing it for about half a year now. I went into it very reluctantly. I don't like the Warblade. I felt the class was overpowered. I don't like the mechanics of the Warblade. (If it's magical--and face it, the maneuvers are--then it's NOT a pure tank class, dammit! Don't call it one!) I let the player give it a try because I could have been wrong, he really wanted to play it, and we have a solid GM/Player relationship based on some trust. If it didn't work out, I knew we'd be able to work out an acceptable compromise.

I have this image of myself over the past five months or so, crouched over the PC like a cat over a mousehole, waiting for the moment when I can pounce and say "SEE?!? Clearly overpowered!!!!"

I'm still waiting.

I'm still not entirely convinced the Warblade is a balanced class. I still don't like the mechanics of it. But I *have* decided it's not extremely overpowered; if I do finally decide it needs fixing, I'll likely change some of the class features rather than ban it outright. For example, I have already removed the "free action recharge" entirely, since the maneuvers renew each combat anyways. (The player had never even used the ability before then.)

YMMV, but I went into this *expecting* the Warblade to prove obviously overpowered. Almost *wanting* it to be (everyone wants to be proven right, after all : ). It hasn't happened.

(As an aside, the other PCs are a Duskblade, Beguiler, spellcasting-centric Cleric, and Artificer. So that may have skewed the results. Take that however you wish...)

I would just like to point out, that for all the maneuvers EXCEPT ones from the disciplines Desert, Shadow (and maybe Devoted, depending on your interpretation of damage) can just as easily be attributed to mundane feats of extraordinary skill/strength as they can to magic.

Actually most of them are described as extraordinary mundane feats, and those that aren't specifically can easily be interpreted as such. For example Punishing stance, you attack recklessly allowing enemies easier penetration of your defense, but inflicting more damage when your attacks hit. There are also one or two in white raven that dont really make sense as mundane, but they are the exception rather than the rule. The only ones with a proliferation of supernatural effects are shadow hand and desert wind.

 

[castro3nw]

I'm actually playing a Warblade in a Return to Ravenloft campaign... So far, Diamond Mind/White Raven. No house rules/no nerfs... (Well, other than the shared assumption that you shouldn't be able to White Raven Tactics yourself...)

Now, I'm not going to say I've got it 100% optimized... But I am using the Insightful Strike and White Raven Tactics and Moment of Perfect Mind that everyone seems to complain about.

Some opinions:

Insightful Strike: It might just be that I don't have my Con. crazy high, or lack of items/something... but at level 8, it's only d20+14. (11+1con+2blade meditation) Granted, it was pretty rough at level 5, hitting regularly for d20+11.. But that was at best every other turn, and up to every 3-4 turns some fights. Then 6+ I started getting iterative attacks... and especially when there was a haste cast... 1x d20+12 or 3x d10+6-ish. (+1 bastard sword, 1-handed, +3 str, +2 WS)

White Raven Tactics: Ok.. So I do have to say this one's amazingly useful. But mostly, it's a teamwork/utility "spell". An extra buff spell, or one more healing from the cleric... Helping the rogue get an extra sneak attack... The wizard casting 2 spells is a little harsh, but sometimes its necessary... Mostly I've found its good for trying to make sure the right people get their turns at the right time.. Moving the cleric up to turn before the undead get to go... Or tagging the rogue to make sure they go between when you've flat-footed the baddy with the White Raven Strike and when it's turn comes up...

Moment of Perfect Mind: Really mixed opinion on this one. We started at level 5, and are now level 8. So, the whole campaign, I've had 4 readied maneuvers.. and this has been one of them. It's felt like I've only had 3 the whole time. That said... I've come up with some pretty spectacular will saves. 3 times. I've had the maneuver readied for 3 levels, and I've used it 3 times. I've found it's no good for making saves when you don't have actions. I've found it's no good for the 2nd will save in a turn. I've found it's no good for the will save next turn. And, it kills any chance of using a boost, or any other swift action, on your next turn. So that said... It's spectacular if you regularly have to make exactly one will save at a time, and no more than 2-3 rounds apart. 'Cuz at best you're looking at something like this..
Off turn: Save!
Turn 1: no swift!
Turn 2: Refresh!
Off turn: Save!

In general: d12 is nice... I didn't grab a huge con... So I've needed it, being the main party tank.
Weapon aptitude -- Ok, fighter should so have 90% of this... But Warblade has few enough feats that fighter feats are a tough choice to fit in.
Skills -- yay tumble!
Lack of ranged weapons -- Get something good to throw, or be prepared to sit the fight out unless your DM allows White Raven Tactics...
White Raven Tactics: My anti-flier

Overall, the rest of the party sees him as pretty powerful.. and he takes the spotlight decently often in a fight... But then the guy he just ran up and whacked beats the crap out of him, and I have to WRT the cleric to get that 2nd cure spell and live another turn, while the casters blow things to smithereens. So far, without trying too hard to twink him out, he's been pretty ok.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'd say that for a Diamond Mind Warblade (or any front-liner really) 'not trying to twink' is an understatement with 12 Con at level 8. I can maybe see a front-liner who is cocky with 12 Con at level 1, but by level 8, I'm impressed that you've lived from what I've heard of ETCR

 

[castro3nw]

Well, there are a few caveats... 6 person party... DM doesn't really enjoy killing PC's... A little luck.. And a cleric who routinely cures my char. for roughly twice his total hp most every major encounter. He's been blinded, stunned, dazed, blinded more, negative level'd and had to put up w/the worst necromancer ever....

*grins* also doesn't hurt that the DM keeps rolling things we've already killed on the random encounter chart...

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, there are a few caveats... 6 person party... DM doesn't really enjoy killing PC's... A little luck.. And a cleric who routinely cures my char. for roughly twice his total hp most every major encounter. He's been blinded, stunned, dazed, blinded more, negative level'd and had to put up w/the worst necromancer ever....

*grins* also doesn't hurt that the DM keeps rolling things we've already killed on the random encounter chart...

Heh, wasn't that the adventure that has a random guy with a high-level death scroll he can't normally cast for no reason? I guess White Raven Tactics is what's keeping you alive by letting the cleric heal twice. It's simply a ridiculous ability if you have enough healing and can use it for offense though--imagine your 6-person party where everyone takes that manoeuvre with Martial Study and then they all use it on the best nova-er of the group (Psion if you have one, Sorcerer if not), allowing that character 6 rounds of actions every round.