What, If Anything, Might be Wrong with the Warblade?

[hong]

In the party I DM, we've got a WB/Mnk, who just got Insightful Strike. He's maxed out his Con and Concentration check, so he's doing 1d20+21 hp of damage per round at level 6.

Per round? At most he's doing it once every other round.

 

[hong]

Oh, they're very problematic indeed. In fact, I've banned LDA. As to the Concentration check, if he was only doing 1d20+21 at level 6 and you think *that's* bad, well, I dunno. 21 is not really that high for Concentration at level 6, although I guess it is if you don't allow +skill check items (which is a great way to help keep those maoeuvres less crazy). The real trick is doing 1d20+upper 20s (possibly 30s with a bit of buffing) at level 5, before iteratives kick in. I honestly can't think of any other simple way to do that much damage at that level, including Sudden Metamagic feats.

Since it's only for one level, I don't see this as a huge deal. If it is, you could fix it simply by moving insightful strike to 4th level.

 

[Nail]

Per round? At most he's doing it once every other round.

True!

And, as you've pointed out in the other thread, against some bad guys a "one shot" is all that's required. Still, I'm eager to see how this goes in actual play --> No Nerf Bat yet!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Since it's only for one level, I don't see this as a huge deal. If it is, you could fix it simply by moving insightful strike to 4th level.

Very true--though it isn't just one level (it's still pretty powerful at other levels before 6) moving it to 4th-level would completely fix it. I'm actually looking to fix Insightful Strike because it seems to be on the borderline of acceptable with caveats, as opposed to Leaping Dragon Attack (which could be fixed if the DC was instead Str-based like Feral Death Blow)

 

[satori01]

I have a feeling that the manuevers that base effects off of a skill check aren't just problematic....they're very problematic, and just scream "maximize!".

At low level the effect is probably unbalanced as your skills will probably outpace your damage modifiers. At high level my instinct is to say they lag behind, because even 4x your Concentration skill with the high level maneuvers is not going to compare to the itterative attacks of full bab class.

Of course in my secondary campaign I saw a 3rd level 18 STR Raging Barbarian full power attack with Inspire Courage and a Dragon Shaman's Power Aura going and do 63 points of damage with a critical.
Big Damage can come at any time.

Your same Monk could of course do that with a Swordsage as well, so it is more an indication of the Manuever than the class.

I have yet to see a Warblade in action. I have seen quite a bit of the Swordsage. I have seen a Crusader in a one shot adventure. Swordsage is balanced. The Crusader was more effective than I thought it would be. I think all of the fervor the Warblade causes scares people away from it. I also suspect many DM's 'edit' the class.
My instinct upon reading it was to remove the recover all maneuvers as a swift action. Upon seeing the other classes in play, I would probably let someone play the class unaltered.

 

[hong]

Very true--though it isn't just one level (it's still pretty powerful at other levels before 6)

Huh? It's a 3rd level maneuver which means you have to be at least 5th level to take it.

I'm actually looking to fix Insightful Strike because it seems to be on the borderline of acceptable with caveats, as opposed to Leaping Dragon Attack (which could be fixed if the DC was instead Str-based like Feral Death Blow)

I actually like the feature of swooping dragon attack that it's (almost) guaranteed, as opposed to having a save. A lot of tough monsters have Fort pumped up, which makes strikes that have Fort saves not very useful against them. It's the fact that it stuns, as opposed to some lesser effect, that's the problem.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Huh? It's a 3rd level maneuver which means you have to be at least 5th level to take it.



I actually like the feature of swooping dragon attack that it's (almost) guaranteed, as opposed to having a save. A lot of tough monsters have Fort pumped up, which makes strikes that have Fort saves not very useful against them. It's the fact that it stuns, as opposed to some lesser effect, that's the problem.

Oh, so it is--forgot that it was a 3rd-level strike and thought it 2nd for some odd reason.

As to the DC being almost guaranteed--for that, it would have to be much lesser of an effect then to be fair, like maybe just a penalty-giver such as Sickened.

 

[Nail]

At low level the effect is probably unbalanced as your skills will probably outpace your damage modifiers. At high level my instinct is to say they lag behind, because even 4x your Concentration skill with the high level maneuvers is not going to compare to the itterative attacks of full bab class...

Possibly.

In the high level play I've been involved in (up to 23rd level), damage from iterative attacks is in the 200 hp to 300 hp (average) range. That said, lots of rounds are spent with only standard actions, since movement is often key. On those rounds, the martial manuevers would really shine.

If my campaign allowed magic items that improved skill checks (like any core campaign would), then those skill checks could be crazy-high!

 

[Kunimatyu]

I've got a level 5 warblade and swordsage in my Savage Tide game at the moment. The Warblade's an exceptionally good character, though he's starting to drop a little bit in power as the casters get higher-level spells.

I've made one small tweak to his recharge ability, and that's that he has to be completely out of maneuvers before he can recharge them. So far this has been good, as he has to carefully select his maneuvers or else spend a few rounds using crappy maneuvers so that he can get back the good ones.

The 'megawhomp that sometimes misses' is almost exactly right - he's one-shotted several monsters (mostly MM1 types with too-low hp) and is pretty darn effective as long as they're not flying. Of course, if he misses, then he gets nothing, and that happens quite a lot.

The swordsage, at least so far, has been underpowered compared to the warblade - on the whole, I'd call it a monk that works - it's more effective than a monk(which is good - monks suck) but less effective than a barbarian. I expect the swordsage to become more powerful as some of the more supernatural-themed maneuvers show up at the higher levels.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Being able to move *and* deal serious damage in the same round is good thing.

Or being able to move at all is a good thing. I like D&D combat until 6th level (or first with Rapid shot and Two-weapon fighting) where everyone does a 5 foot step max all the time. It is jsut so boring.

And such a silly picutre. Mage backs up five feet and casts XXXXX, Fighter steps up five feet and attacks the mage XXXX times. Repeat ad infinatum.

That is one good thing TOB has brought to the table, movement returns. And it is a good thing.