D&D 5E What if clerics cast like warlocks?

[Mercule]

[MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION]: Funny. I had a similar thought, over the weekend. I'd meant to post about it and forgot.

I was actually thinking that the Warlock might be a better model for those who don't want formal gods in their game, for whatever reason. Remove the Cleric class and add an angelic patron that granted access to domain spells. Either that or create a Warlock/Cleric hybrid class that worked more like the Warlock, but totally replaced the spell list.

I'd argue that this is one of many ways of looking at it. Another is that the higher agent shows the warlock a secret to learning power and the warlock gains the rest of it on their own. I favor this viewpoint since nothing about a warlock compels them to obey their patron and there is nothing in the PHB or DMG about striping a warlock of their powers because they don't obey.

In fairness, I can't remember anyplace that calls out the Cleric for ignoring their deities tenets.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I was actually thinking that the Warlock might be a better model for those who don't want formal gods in their game, for whatever reason. Remove the Cleric class and add an angelic patron that granted access to domain spells. Either that or create a Warlock/Cleric hybrid class that worked more like the Warlock, but totally replaced the spell list.

Given the warlock's focus on blasting and destruction, I'd change the list.

But I don't think it's a matter of wanting or not wanting formal gods in the game. You can run vanilla clerics in games without gods. And you can run pact-style clerics in games with gods. Like I said earlier, a god is sort of just another type of patron.

In fairness, I can't remember anyplace that calls out the Cleric for ignoring their deities tenets.

IIRC, in 4E the fluff was explicitly that the god invested the cleric with a fragment of power and could not revoke it (or at least, not easily -- I suppose they could always send a solar to squash the guy). This allowed for some interesting storytelling possibilities with corrupt and rebellious clerics.

5E is more ambiguous on what's allowed. Up to the DM.

 

[Mercule]

Given the warlock's focus on blasting and destruction, I'd change the list.

But I don't think it's a matter of wanting or not wanting formal gods in the game. You can run vanilla clerics in games without gods. And you can run pact-style clerics in games with gods. Like I said earlier, a god is sort of just another type of patron.

Yeah. I like the new spell list idea better. It's a matter of what prompted the thought and how I got to the same general question.

IIRC, in 4E the fluff was explicitly that the god invested the cleric with a fragment of power and could not revoke it (or at least, not easily -- I suppose they could always send a solar to squash the guy). This allowed for some interesting storytelling possibilities with corrupt and rebellious clerics.

5E is more ambiguous on what's allowed. Up to the DM.

1E stated that the Cleric communed with representatives of their patron, every day. Actually, I think 1-2 level spells were based solely on faith. From there, they'd have tea with increasingly potent emissaries until 7th (max in 1E) level were bestowed directly by the god. If you're not on speaking terms with the angels, you gets nothing above 2nd level. Even that may be dubious.

As you say, though, it's the 5E rules that matter.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

@TheCosmicKid: Funny. I had a similar thought, over the weekend. I'd meant to post about it and forgot.

I was actually thinking that the Warlock might be a better model for those who don't want formal gods in their game, for whatever reason. Remove the Cleric class and add an angelic patron that granted access to domain spells. Either that or create a Warlock/Cleric hybrid class that worked more like the Warlock, but totally replaced the spell list.


In fairness, I can't remember anyplace that calls out the Cleric for ignoring their deities tenets.

I think it has been a long time (maybe 1e) since there has been anything other than "there may be consequences" or something similarly vague, although my memory isn't what it used to be. I figure a god who was unhappy with a cleric could drop an angel on said cleric to show the deities displeasure (if the cleric wins the fight, the god wasn't really that displeased); I am pretty sure there was a monster in the Fiend Folio whose gig was doing that.

Technically, there isn't anything in 5e so far that indicates gods aren't just really big celestials and fiends (Tiamat's type was fiend, not god, or even the subtype titan), so I think it wouldn't take much to go the 2e route.

I could see an angel gifting a warlock, but it does raise questions of why do that instead of making the dude(tte) a paladin (assuming better charisma that wisdom, so not a cleric) or a favored soul sorcerer (assuming that can be inflicted on somebody like the chaos sorcerer)? I could see something like a fanatic--I live to kill demons or something like that, where a degree of separation might be good.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I could see something like a fanatic--I live to kill demons or something like that, where a degree of separation might be good.

That's still just an Oath of Vengeance paladin, though, right?

Flavorwise, I see warlocks as generally less fanatical than conventional divine casters. Clerics are devoted to their patrons. Warlocks have negotiated a (theoretically) mutually beneficial agreement with theirs. A warlock can easily view a patron as nothing more than a disagreeable means to an end, the cosmic version of the creepy guy at the gas station register.

So if gods and angels do employ warlocks, perhaps the cleric is the "company man" whereas the warlock is the "independent contractor"?

 

[MoonSong]

Ok these are the basic houserules I use. The solution to avoid chain short rests and to keep a little pressure on the party not to just nova every time:

• You recover all hit dice overnight instead of half of them.
• The cleric of life's bonus to healing spells doesn't apply to goodberry (nor any other bonus).
• All casters use the warlocks's spell slots per day (all of them, even half casters and third casters) -might post specific versions of the classes later-
• Healing spells change to read:

Healing Word
1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: 60 feet Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

A creature of your choice that you can see within range expends and rolls a hit dice to regain hit points. Add your spellcasting ability modifier to the hit points recovered. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d4 for each slot level above 1st.

Cure Wounds
1st-level evocation
Casting Time:1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
A creature you touch expends a hit dice to recover hit points, add 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier to the amount recovered. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.

Mass Cure Wounds
5th-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 60 feet

Components: V, S

Duration: Instantaneous

A wave of healing energy washes out from a point of your choice within range. Choose up to six creatures in a 30 foot radius Sphere centered on that point. Each target can spend a hit dice to regain hit points equal to 3d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 5th.

6th level and up spells still remain a once per day deal so no changes to heal are needed.

Optional: set short rests to 5 minutes (and they can't be chained)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Optional: set short rests to 5 minutes (and they can't be chained)

How do you justify not being able to chain them?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

How do you justify not being able to chain them?

Weirdly, this is more a statement to [MENTION=6689464]MoonSong[/MENTION] than a response to you, but; Short rests cannot be chained because the book lays out the short rest as being of variable length of at least 1 hour (by default) - meaning a player saying "I take two short rests" being treated by a DM as identical in effect to having said "I take a short rest, but I waste some time too" is following the letter, and I think probably the intent, of the rules as written.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

That's still just an Oath of Vengeance paladin, though, right?

Flavorwise, I see warlocks as generally less fanatical than conventional divine casters. Clerics are devoted to their patrons. Warlocks have negotiated a (theoretically) mutually beneficial agreement with theirs. A warlock can easily view a patron as nothing more than a disagreeable means to an end, the cosmic version of the creepy guy at the gas station register.

So if gods and angels do employ warlocks, perhaps the cleric is the "company man" whereas the warlock is the "independent contractor"?

"Independent contractors"--that makes me think the forces of good have to continually nag them to keep them underbudget and on time. I kid, I kid (maybe not when I think of last time my bathroom needed remodeling). I figure plausible deniability is the best reason--there are cleric options for being sneaky, and for most anything else, the standard champions of goodness apply, but sometimes it is going to be ugly, and whoever is going to do "what needs to be done" will be traumatized, so better to hire a warlock then to risk someone whose good deeds might inspire a generation.

 

[Xeviat]

Ok these are the basic houserules I use. The solution to avoid chain short rests and to keep a little pressure on the party not to just nova every time:

• You recover all hit dice overnight instead of half of them.
• The cleric of life's bonus to healing spells doesn't apply to goodberry (nor any other bonus).
• All casters use the warlocks's spell slots per day (all of them, even half casters and third casters) -might post specific versions of the classes later-
• Healing spells change to read:

6th level and up spells still remain a once per day deal so no changes to heal are needed.

Optional: set short rests to 5 minutes (and they can't be chained)

Did you intend for healing word and cure wounds to be identical at first level, except healing word is ranged and bonus action?


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