D&D 5E What if clerics cast like warlocks?

[MoonSong]

How do you justify not being able to chain them?

Weirdly, this is more a statement to @MoonSong than a response to you, but; Short rests cannot be chained because the book lays out the short rest as being of variable length of at least 1 hour (by default) - meaning a player saying "I take two short rests" being treated by a DM as identical in effect to having said "I take a short rest, but I waste some time too" is following the letter, and I think probably the intent, of the rules as written.

Well, since healing is capped by hit dice, chaining a second short rest has no effect. As for utility ten minutes is already equal to ritual casting. And that is basically it. Since everybody is on a short rest schedule for most things, a lot of the most abusive combos are gone.

Did you intend for healing word and cure wounds to be identical at first level, except healing word is ranged and bonus action?


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Forgot to proofread n_n

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Weirdly, this is more a statement to @MoonSong than a response to you, but; Short rests cannot be chained because the book lays out the short rest as being of variable length of at least 1 hour (by default) - meaning a player saying "I take two short rests" being treated by a DM as identical in effect to having said "I take a short rest, but I waste some time too" is following the letter, and I think probably the intent, of the rules as written.

How does that make sense? What "resets" the short rest allowing you to take a second one?

Well, since healing is capped by hit dice, chaining a second short rest has no effect. As for utility ten minutes is already equal to ritual casting. And that is basically it. Since everybody is on a short rest schedule for most things, a lot of the most abusive combos are gone.

Oh, so you're saying "they can't be chained" is a consequence of of your rules rather than a hard rule in itself? Then do you change other abilities that incentivize chaining, like Second Wind and Healer?

 

[Jester David]

Tony nails it here:

Another issue is that the cleric's traditional 'healer' or support role can sometimes require dusting off a little used spell on their list to solve some problem the party has run up against. (Rest, memorize a bunch of lesser restorations, that kinda thing.) The limited spells known of the Warlock casting mechanics would get in the way of that - they might have to be 'prepped Warlocks' or something.

Which is the issue. Sometimes you just need that greater restoration. It really pushes clerics to take the one or two clerical spells, which don't always gain increased benefit from casting at a higher slot.

 

[Xeviat]

Tony msils it here:

Which is the issue. Sometimes you just need that greater restoration. It really pushes clerics to take the one or two clerical spells, which don't always gain increased benefit from casting at a higher slot.

Considering that the Wizard and Sorcerer have the same number of spells per day (likewise the cleric and bard, or the paladin and ranger), I think Preparation vs. Spells Known is balanced in a different area of the class (at least intentionally). A Cleric could, therefor, utilize the warlock spells per day/short rest method just fine with prepared spells. I think having prepared spells could be a fair trade off for invocations, as having prepared spells does boost their utility in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Considering that the Wizard and Sorcerer have the same number of spells per day (likewise the cleric and bard, or the paladin and ranger), I think Preparation vs. Spells Known is balanced in a different area of the class (at least intentionally).

Balance needn't be a big concern, as long as the result is able to handle the cleric's traditional, but informal, support role well enough...

A Cleric could, therefor, utilize the warlock spells per day/short rest method just fine with prepared spells. I think having prepared spells could be a fair trade off for invocations, as having prepared spells does boost their utility in the grand scheme of things.

That sounds reasonable, but aren't invocation also to fill in for lack of low-level slots?

But, yes, Warlock casting, but with prepped spells instead of known might well be workable.

Another alternative, something that I'd on rare occasion done back in the day, would be to have the spells available neither prepped nor known, but provided by the DM (ie chosen by the deity). Or, on the other extreme, just let 'em cast (or 'pray for,' slot expended if the prayer is answered) any spell on the list.

 

[Xeviat]

That sounds reasonable, but aren't invocation also to fill in for lack of low-level slots?

I don't think they are. Here's a quick comparison of the standard caster's spell points against a warlock's spell points if you converted them slot for slot (since the standard slots convert to the spell points point for point, no loss for the "versatility")

Level	Spell Points	Warlock Points
1	4	6
2	6	12
3	14	18
4	17	18
5	27	30
6	32	30
7	38	36
8	44	36
9	57	42
10	64	42
11	73	72
12	73	72
13	83	82
14	83	82
15	94	93
16	94	93
17	107	127
18	114	127
19	123	127
20	133	127

They're really close. The warlock is behind a lot, ahead for a bit, but they're neck and neck in a few places. The invocations make up for losing some of the utility of non-scaling spells, but I think those could be looked at differently. Heck, looking at the spell point system itself, I'd be terrified of a wizard's ability to use shield that much (though the wizard itself could take shield as one of it's 2 at-will spells). It does ignore the Wizard's Arcane Recovery and the Warlock's Eldritch Master, though.

But, yes, Warlock casting, but with prepped spells instead of known might well be workable.

I think so. I'm getting ready to test it out.

Another alternative, something that I'd on rare occasion done back in the day, would be to have the spells available neither prepped nor known, but provided by the DM (ie chosen by the deity). Or, on the other extreme, just let 'em cast (or 'pray for,' slot expended if the prayer is answered) any spell on the list.

Like a Religion check, or a "piety check" whenever you cast to see if you get the spell you're hoping for? It'd be interesting, but I don't think I'd like it.

Edit: Why is the table not working? Fixed it.

 

[Xeviat]

That sounds reasonable, but aren't invocation also to fill in for lack of low-level slots?

You know, I thought about this a little. You're right. A strict warlock to SP conversion is spot on, but that's only going to be applicable when you're burning all of your spells for damage. A spell point warlock would have the ability to drop some low level utility spells without adversely affecting their spell point total; a slot warlock doesn't have this ability. Some invocations may be appropriate. I'd have to compare a Warlock and a Wizard side by side and see just how much the designers factored their invocations into their progression.

 

[Xeviat]

"If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature..." (PHB p. 164)

Magic Initiate doesn't work, though.

Why does Magic Initiate not work? I was getting ready to fight, but I checked for a Sage Advice ruling first ...

If you have spellslots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn withthe Magic Initiate feat?
Yes, but only if the class you pick for thefeat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer andyou are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells youthat you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells youknow, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcererspell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizardand pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell,which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.In short, you mustfollow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determinewhether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learnfrom Magic Initiate.

Okay, I suppose that's the ruling. It seems weird. Learning a spell through multiclassing and learning it from a feat are treated differently. I suppose my healer warlock will have to Be a Paladin2/WarlockX or a Bard1/WarlockX.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Like a Religion check, or a "piety check" whenever you cast to see if you get the spell you're hoping for? It'd be interesting, but I don't think I'd like it.

I was just thinking DM ruling.

 

[Xeviat]

I was just thinking DM ruling.

Now you know how much I hate "DM May I?"