D&D 5E What if clerics cast like warlocks?

[TheCosmicKid]

I just had an idle thought. I assume you've read the title of this thread and already know what it was. But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. The way warlocks cast, on a short-rest basis with flat slot levels, really fits with the notion that the magic isn't coming from them, but channeled from some other greater source. And, of course, they're not the only class that does that. Clerics, druids, rangers, and paladins all derive their power from what may be called patrons.

So the question is: are the traditional and the warlock casting systems balanced against each other? Is it really as simple as pulling one out and plugging in the other, or would we have to make some further adaptations? (I suppose the same question could also be reversed, if you wanted to make warlocks traditional spellcasters.)

 

[Leatherhead]

Thematically warlocks gain their powers by some higher agent breaking the rules, and therefore their spellcasting system "breaks the rules" of magic.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The two casting resource variants appear to be roughly balanced if the game's default assumptions are true.

By which I mean that the balance isn't perfect, and isn't really intended to be either - it's just supposed to feel fair to the players over the course of playing the game, not be an equation.

But there is one thing that I think has to be noted: It isn't just the spell slot number, level, and when they refresh - the warlock casting system also includes their invocations, their mystic arcanum, and their intentionally more powerful, especially when enhanced by invocations, eldritch blast cantrip. So if you are going to replace the cleric class spellcasting feature with a warlock-like system, it would need to include an analog to those features.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

But there is one thing that I think has to be noted: It isn't just the spell slot number, level, and when they refresh - the warlock casting system also includes their invocations, their mystic arcanum, and their intentionally more powerful, especially when enhanced by invocations, eldritch blast cantrip. So if you are going to replace the cleric class spellcasting feature with a warlock-like system, it would need to include an analog to those features.

I suppose I should have been more clear. Mystic Arcanum I view as an integral part of the warlock spellcasting system. Obviously any full caster using that system would need an equivalent if they want to cast spells higher than 5th level. (Wouldn't be an issue for the half-casters.)

Invocations I don't view as an integral part of the warlock spellcasting system. They're more like additional class features. And I don't see a burning need for divine casters to get an invocation-like system beyond the class features they already have.

Eldritch blast is a good discussion point. I don't think it would be appropriate to simply clone the spell or create a near-duplicate -- a major reason that warlocks get it is that blasting is a large part of their schtick, and it isn't for clerics. Functionally, what eldritch blast does is give warlocks something powerful to do when they don't want to use one of of their very limited spell slots. And here's my thinking: aren't clerics kind of built like that already? They get basic attack enhancements and powerful self-buff spells that last for multiple rounds. Could the cleric equivalent of eldritch blast be simply hitting the bad guy with a mace? Or do you think there needs to be more?

 

[Tony Vargas]

the warlock casting system also includes their invocations, their mystic arcanum, and their intentionally more powerful, especially when enhanced by invocations, eldritch blast cantrip.

Nod, mostly agreed. Though eldritch blast is just a way of doing decent damage and contributing in combat without using slots and clerics have traditionally just waded into melee when it came to it.

Another issue is that the cleric's traditional 'healer' or support role can sometimes require dusting off a little used spell on their list to solve some problem the party has run up against. (Rest, memorize a bunch of lesser restorations, that kinda thing.) The limited spells known of the Warlock casting mechanics would get in the way of that - they might have to be 'prepped Warlocks' or something.

Could the cleric equivalent of eldritch blast be simply hitting the bad guy with a mace? Or do you think there needs to be more?

Prettymuch. A War Cleric'll be better at it. But, pumping out the DPR has never been the Cleric's primary thing, while it has often been the Warlock's.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The limited spells known of the Warlock casting mechanics would get in the way of that - they might have to be 'prepped Warlocks' or something.

They can pretty much just use the system they already have. Might need some clarification on how prepping interacts with Mystic Arcanum slots.

But, pumping out the DPR has never been the Cleric's primary thing, while it has often been the Warlock's.

Exactly.

 

[Shiroiken]

This is a terrible idea for one reason: the cleric can no longer provide decent healing for the party with such limited spell slots. Yes, each spell will grant more HP, but you can't heal more than 2 characters between Short Rests until you have Mass Cure Wounds at level 9.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

To contrast, I would say that this is a terrible idea because it enables the cleric to heal the entire party on short-rest resources. One of the guiding principles of this edition, with its attrition model, is that you're eventually supposed to run out of HP near the end of the day. With this change, the entire party has a strong incentive to chain short rests until everyone is at full (where previously only the fighter would benefit).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

This is a terrible idea for one reason: the cleric can no longer provide decent healing for the party with such limited spell slots. Yes, each spell will grant more HP, but you can't heal more than 2 characters between Short Rests until you have Mass Cure Wounds at level 9.

This touches on why I mentioned that you would need to include an invocation-like set of additional spell powers, and keep in mind not that eldritch blast does good DPR, but that warlocks are given eldritch blast and it's enhancement invocations for a reason - that reason being that you need to do something so that the class getting only 2 "big" effects per short rest can still do what is expected of the class to a meaningful degree besides that.

Even just a 1/rest ability to provide healing to the party without spending a spell slot would go a long way to making the cleric still feel like a capable healer despite limited spell slots.

 

[MoonSong]

Curiously in my most recent campaign I did just that, or almost. Well kind of -clerics are banned because they don't fit the Gottdammerung theme I was looking for, and wizards weren't touched because, well I don't like wizards- but basically switched all other casters to per short rest casting -and a few other abilities from the other classes-. Healing is indeed a problem whit it. How I solved it is basically a trade secret so sent me $5 to find it out... (no? ok I will do it if you give me enough xp then)