D&D 5E What if Combat Cantrips looked like this instead...

[JacktheRabbit]

I think it would work, but I don't see much benefit in reinventing the wheel. Maybe it would help multiclassed characters, or non-casters' spellcaster subclasses.

Also, I don't really like every spellcaster to be a spambot of magical attacks, and 5e already allows attack cantrips to all of them, so giving it them for free it's even worse for my tastes.

I agree, it is already getting to the point where spellcasters look like they come out of Diablo or Path of Exile and can just constantly spam varying bolts of energy across the battlefield.

 

[LapBandit]

And I'm sitting here still wondering why cantrip damage scales.

 

[Blue]

Most of those issues are addressed in implementation. Remember, this is just a random idea, not a fully-implemented ruleset.

I was commenting on what was originally posted. Taking a critique of an idea and sweeping it under the rug because it did not address ideas that weren't posted isn't the basis of a fruitful discussion.

 

[Ganymede81]

All of that sounds like too much to be instead of an attack.

No one says that about weapon attacks, of which the fighter class alone gives multiple ways to enhance or upgrade them. Fighters get riders to their weapon attacks that add bonuses to hit or damage with specific types of weapons, rerolls to damage dice, expanded crit ranges, special maneuvers that add the ability to push/disarm/distract/demoralize/etc., attacks that disrupt a creature's ability to resist magic, and the ability to weave cantrips in with melee weapon attacks.

I mean, it would certainly be way more than the token cantrip modifications that Warlocks get, but weapon attacks already establish a workable and already-accepted model for how it could be handled.

I was commenting on what was originally posted. Taking a critique of an idea and sweeping it under the rug because it did not address ideas that weren't posted isn't the basis of a fruitful discussion.

The notion that the posted magical attack was merely a sample and that they would be differentiated/enhanced within each class was in the original post. Those ideas were then elaborated on in subsequent posts before your first comment. Feel free to take another gander at them and hop back into the chat!

I agree, it is already getting to the point where spellcasters look like they come out of Diablo or Path of Exile and can just constantly spam varying bolts of energy across the battlefield.

Spamming bolts of energy is already 5e, this idea doesn't somehow pioneer it. All this idea does is change its mechanical implementation; if my post never existed, spellcasters all over 5e would still be spending their turns launching fire bolts and eldritch blasts at their foes.

 

[Satyrn]

I get the feeling that you're looking for validation instead of opinions. So in the spirit of the season: I'm certain your idea could work.


But, I really don't see how this is any different than the way cantrips already are. I mean, read what you wrote earlier as if you were describing cantrips

I could see perhaps a wizard getting four magical attacks in total, like a fighter, but I could easily envision other spellcasting classes getting other bonuses instead. Some might be able to add riders to the magical attacks (shove, trip, slow, etc.), others might be able to add progressively more damage dice to one attack, while others would simply gain Extra Attack at 5th level that lets them fire an extra magical attack on top of whatever their first attack was.

Except it's the warlock getting extra attacks instead of the wizard.

 

[Harzel]

Arcane Blast

When you take an attack action, you can make one ranged spell attack. This attack requires verbal and somatic components as if it were a spell.

This attack has a range of 60 feet. On a hit, the target takes fire, lightning, or cold damage equal to 1d6 plus your spellcasting modifier.

***

What if combat cantrips worked like this (modeled as a wizard's cantrip) in lieu of working via the "Cast a spell" action? You'd essentially give every caster a combat cantrip like this and then let them take non-combat/support cantrips with the remainder of their slots.

This would treat cantrip attacks as far more akin to weapon attacks, and would allow for abilities to enhance them in the same way (whether something similar to a Battle Master's maneuvers or a Rogue's sneak attack, etc.). It would also allow for the power level of cantrip attacks to progress in the same way as regular attacks (via a modified Extra Attack feature or otherwise). It'd eliminate the need to scale cantrips within the spell itself.

What do you guys think? Does this have potential?

What problem are you trying to solve?

If it is any form of "spell casters are not good enough", sorry, you will not get my vote.

 

[Leatherhead]

What problem are you trying to solve?

If it is any form of "spell casters are not good enough", sorry, you will not get my vote.

The problem of casters taking multiple attack cantrips.
Though it's a bit odd you responded that way, considering this is a nerf. Normal cantrips can target saving throws and feature all kinds of riders. This is just a shortbow that does elemental damage. Well, ok, that's not true. It's actually significantly worse than a shortbow, due to all the ways you can pump up the damage of a shortbow. Such as finding magic arrows, using a spell or ability that ups the weapon's DPR, or taking the Sharpshooter feat.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No one says that about weapon attacks, of which the fighter class alone gives multiple ways to enhance or upgrade them. Fighters get riders to their weapon attacks that add bonuses to hit or damage with specific types of weapons, rerolls to damage dice, expanded crit ranges, special maneuvers that add the ability to push/disarm/distract/demoralize/etc., attacks that disrupt a creature's ability to resist magic, and the ability to weave cantrips in with melee weapon attacks.

I mean, it would certainly be way more than the token cantrip modifications that Warlocks get, but weapon attacks already establish a workable and already-accepted model for how it could be handled.

I think that cantrips are designed at the power and scaling that they are deliberately generally of lower power and versatility than weapon attacks because unlike weapon-using classes, cantrips are the fallback option.
The main power and versatility of spellcasters derives from the spells that use spell slots.

A class based around cantrips similar to those suggested in this thread should probably have rather curtailed spellcasting: possibly half-caster or a reduced warlock style system.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The problem of casters taking multiple attack cantrips.
Though it's a bit odd you responded that way, considering this is a nerf. Normal cantrips can target saving throws and feature all kinds of riders. This is just a shortbow that does elemental damage. Well, ok, that's not true. It's actually significantly worse than a shortbow, due to all the ways you can pump up the damage of a shortbow. Such as finding magic arrows, using a spell or ability that ups the weapon's DPR, or taking the Sharpshooter feat.

As the OP pointed out rather acerbically earlier, the intent is to have these new cantrips enhanced by effects similar to ways that weapon attacks can be modified, to add riders to them, and for them to scale with level.

Whether or not this will be better or worse than a shortbow is something that we'll have to wait for actual examples to judge.

 

[Ganymede81]

I get the feeling that you're looking for validation instead of opinions.

That's probably because you're on a forum, and human beings always seem just a bit meaner and nastier than compared to in a face-to-face exchange. It is kinda easy to default into assuming someone's just being a jerk.

So in the spirit of the season: I'm certain your idea could work.

But, I really don't see how this is any different than the way cantrips already are. I mean, read what you wrote earlier as if you were describing cantrips...Except it's the warlock getting extra attacks instead of the wizard.

Not just the Warlock, literally anyone with one or two levels of Warlock. That's one of the issues that inspired this idea: how the choice to use the cantrip model has inelegant results like this.

What problem are you trying to solve?

If it is any form of "spell casters are not good enough", sorry, you will not get my vote.

That's definitely not the problem.

Weapon attacks generally scale elegantly and in interesting ways (Extra attacks, maneuvers, divine strike, sneak attack, etc.). Cantrips, with the possible exception of the single-classed warlock, do not.

As the OP pointed out rather acerbically earlier, the intent is to have these new cantrips enhanced by effects similar to ways that weapon attacks can be modified, to add riders to them, and for them to scale with level.

Let me assure you that I was not being acerbic. Text does not have the subtlety of speech.

Whether or not this will be better or worse than a shortbow is something that we'll have to wait for actual examples to judge.

I doubt Crawford is scanning this thread for UA content, so we probably aren't going to see any extensive implementation examples.